The power of role models • Hacker News Board

Re: The power of role models

#81

Post by zigzigzag » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:43 PM UTC

projektir wrote: post #19

hd4 wrote: post #3

This is a fine and good idea, as long as the central pillar is that we remain meritocratic first, everything else should come after that.

Meritocracy paradoxically seems to lead to worse results overall. Remember that measuring merit is effectively impossible in any kind of reliable and systematic fashion. Which means its measured by heuristics, and heuristics are very sensitive to preconceptions, stereotypes, etc.

Meritocracy paradoxically seems to lead to worse results overall

An extreme opinion stated as if it's a fact. Can you show me the phalanx of companies systematically beating their competition by deliberately hiring incompetent but genetically "diverse" people?

Re: The power of role models

#82

Post by dastbe » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:44 PM UTC

Oxitendwe wrote: post #24

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…

So I'll preface my opinion with the fact that we're both putting words into some dudes mouth.

When he or anyone else says that we should promote women, it's not saying that we should promote incompetent women. It's saying we should promote women who deserve it by challenging our biases. Take as an example orchestra auditions; when orchestras move to blind auditions the gender ratios for top positions suddenly become much more representative of the actual population. Since we do not have the luxury of blind auditions, we have to challenge ourselves to lean more on objective measures, as well as questioning our subjective measures that (unknowingly) take gender into account.

And maybe you're right; maybe women have less interest in science than men. The problem is we'll never actually know because society tells children, teens, and adults that women don't like math and men don't like nursing. So the best mechanism we have is encouraging women and men that the status quo is arbitrary, which involves having events focused on women in tech and working to promote women who deserve to be promoted so that there is an alternate narrative. Because that narrative has just as much validity (and in my opinion much more so) as the narrative that women just don't like science.

Re: The power of role models

#83

Post by ArkyBeagle » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:45 PM UTC

brennen wrote: post #67

ErikVandeWater wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any good sources that analyze the causes exodus of women from computer science? To solve these kinds of problems it would be helpful to learn the cause of the change.

I don't mean this to sound overly harsh, but I think treating this situation as some sort of mystery is part of the problem. All that one really needs to do to understand why the field is unwelcoming to women is to start listening to women .

During the Cold War, if one showed up in one of the weedout classes for EE, you got the "look to your left & right. One of you will not survive this process" lecture. EE was very seriously a defense discipline and the values-pyramid was feeding bodies into the Military Industrial Complex.

I imagine that is part of it.

Re: The power of role models

#84

Post by geofft » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:45 PM UTC

Oxitendwe wrote: post #78

bbatsell wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it might be valuable to reflect on why your immediate reaction to "push them into positions of influence" is to think that women are unqualified to be there and they must be receiving "special advantage" if they are.

Was it not his entire point that these people should be given an advantage? What else do you think it means to be "pushed into positions of influence"?

I think it means that due to existing biases, the role models, promoted people, etc. are biased towards men and women, and therefore by definition include some number of men less qualified than women who could potentially have those roles. We need to push back on these biases, which means that we need to push women into roles where they are qualified, and push out unqualified men as a result.

It's harsh, but if we want a meritocracy, it's the right thing to do.

Re: The power of role models

#85

Post by rationalcult » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:46 PM UTC

Hear me out before you downvote me to oblivion. Diversity talk is the war against middle class and men. That's how elite stay in power. There is no need to "FORCE" women into tech and become managers.

I would argue that 99% women are mediocre and so are 99% men. Those who are smart rise to the top automatically. You are saying that because women have the vagina, promote them. I worked for three large tech companies. One went down in flames as we all know and sold for pieces.

I see two fold problems in the US and Asian/Indian women joining this diversity cult. 1) Most of these women are at-wall or post-wall women. They are single, pumped and dumped over the years and no man in sight. These women are depressed internally. Getting these women into tech is not going to solve any problem. In fact, thousands of lives may be destroyed because of failing businesses. It has happened with Yahoo, HP, and others and will follow the pattern. Of course, there are smart women. They know their value and may rise to the top chain due to their talent.

2. In last 10 or so years, there seems to be the war against men. Ever notice how easy life is for women? Money, sex, shelter, divorce, courts, state et al. What about men? These white-knight pussy hungry betas, who are vouching for women, are actually worse. That's what you get from broken families and not having fatherly figures. Most, if not all, are the product of single mothers and/or beta fathers.

I am not saying women should not work in tech. I am saying forcing them to be in tech or promoting them because they are women is going to end in disaster.

Re: The power of role models

#86

Post by ryanmarsh » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:46 PM UTC

"but it seemed to me that the difference stemmed from the demographics"

feminine social primacy != equality

Why is this part of the narrative of women in STEM? Do people not realize this language is counterproductive?

Re: The power of role models

#87

Post by DanBC » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:47 PM UTC

hkon wrote: post #69

I never hear people speak about fixing the nursing gender gap....

That's because you haven't looked.

Here's a post I made four years ago that mentions programmes to increase men in nursing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6210618#6210989

Or from user Anechoic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5350093#5350655

Or from dgabriel five years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3452516#3453224

or this from dragonwriter three years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6980431#6982189

There are hundreds of these posts on HN.

Re: The power of role models

#88

Post by afarrell » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:47 PM UTC

skookumchuck wrote: post #66

The article suggests that power in computing is something men have to give. It isn't. Computing is a market based economy. Anyone can start a computing company, and run it as they please. I.e. women can start computing companies, and hire women. Women do not need permission from men to do this, nor do they need favor from men.

But they do need capital.

Re: The power of role models

#89

Post by Omniusaspirer » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:47 PM UTC

hkon wrote: post #69

I never hear people speak about fixing the nursing gender gap....

I think it will fix itself frankly, the job is way too good not to. Easy 6 figures with a 2 year degree, huge ability to rise into management, lots of different areas to work if you dislike the standard floor nursing. Men can't stay blind to that forever.

Re: The power of role models

#90

Post by xupybd » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:47 PM UTC

bbatsell wrote: post #73

Oxitendwe wrote: post #24

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…

I think it might be valuable to reflect on why your immediate reaction to "push them into positions of influence" is to think that women are unqualified to be there and they must be receiving "special advantage" if they are.

Doesn't the original text imply just that?