The power of role models • Hacker News Board

Re: The power of role models

#51

Post by jordanlev » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:33 PM UTC

4ad wrote: post #17

jordanlev wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool. What if it turned out that in some places there is proof that what's going on is "promote X, because he is a man"... would you then fight against that with all your being?

Of course I would. I strongly want injustice and discrimination to end in the world (which is why I am against affirmative action in the first place).

As a developer, it seems pretty clear to me that there is implicit bias going on in our industry. I don't know how or why, but I don't believe that men are inherently better than women at the skills it takes to succeed, so I'm not sure what else would explain the discrepancy. So if my assumption is correct, then I want to ask your help (as someone who fights discrimination with all their being) -- what can I do to help correct this situation? Or perhaps my assumption that there is even bias in the first place is wrong?

Re: The power of role models

#52

Post by bitexploder » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:33 PM UTC

jfaucett wrote: post #27

bitexploder wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting area sort of like affirmative action. If we don't cede some ground to the notion meritocracy, might that not delay the length of time it takes to increase diversity in the field? Will this create the best possible computing and technology world possible -- cutting out or limiting half the population? That is the point Rob is subtly making. We may have to trade a little merit now for increased d…

What is the point of diversity? You're just drawing arbitrary lines based on skin color or gender or sexual orientation. If you drew those lines somewhere else say, favorite color/food, political affiliation, mathematical abilities, etc. you'd have a completely different categorization. This is why a meritocracy is so important. There is no smaller minority group than the individual, basing outcomes on anything else…

The biggest point to me is thinking if this would make technology better, increasing th pool of practioners. Increasing the odds of advancement. Diversity isn't the end outcome desired. Better technology is. Diversity (widest possible pool qualified of humans participating). It is not clear if diversity will help, but it seems like it would. I don't think there is anything inherent to male brains that makes them better at STEM fields.

Re: The power of role models

#53

Post by adrianmacneil » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:34 PM UTC

4ad wrote: post #7

> The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is [...] to promote them. [...] To push them into positions of influence. I am all for equality in chances for all people, men and women, black and white, gay and straight, anything really, but this affirmative action "promote X because she is a women" (or black, or XXX) is something I will fight against with all my being and all my forces until the d…

Have you considered that purely meritocratic actions, with no affirmative action, might only result in reaching a local maxima of productivity for an organization or industry?

It's possible that by following your stance and having pure equality, we will not reach an ideal state that could have been reached, given some short term hires/promotions to create role models which then help others to reach their potential.

Re: The power of role models

#54

Post by exolymph » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:34 PM UTC

Oxitendwe wrote: post #24

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…

An essay that winds around to a similar point: https://status451.com/2016/11/06/exclusive-inclusivity/

Re: The power of role models

#55

Post by geofft » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:34 PM UTC

ErikVandeWater wrote: post #37

skywhopper wrote: post #12

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…

Are there any good sources that analyze the causes exodus of women from computer science? To solve these kinds of problems it would be helpful to learn the cause of the change.

Here's a survey paper with a bunch of citations:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1soIYek-YEIvqtu9brv3ecdPb...

Re: The power of role models

#56

Post by Tarq0n » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:34 PM UTC

4ad wrote: post #7

> The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is [...] to promote them. [...] To push them into positions of influence. I am all for equality in chances for all people, men and women, black and white, gay and straight, anything really, but this affirmative action "promote X because she is a women" (or black, or XXX) is something I will fight against with all my being and all my forces until the d…

Can you supply a realistic alternative to affirmative action that would make it unnecessary?

Re: The power of role models

#57

Post by mattnewton » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:35 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #20

pdq wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wallflower Definition 2

oh ok. What is wrong with being shy. 'none of them were wallflowers' seems like such an odd thing to say. As a shy person myself, hate this .

"Wallflower" has the connotation of being almost decorative, for show. Basically, he's calling out that they were active participants important to the discussion instead of observers or accessories that the discussion could have been had without. It's not so much that they weren't shy, it's that they materially impacted the meeting.

I think this was chosen to contrast it to an alternative method of diversity where many women are included but they are not as important. His thesis is not to optimize for "numbers of bodies" equal representation, but equal representation of influence.

Re: The power of role models

#58

Post by kachnuv_ocasek » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:35 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #9

"In my long career, I had never before been in a room like that, and the difference in tone, conversation, respect, and professionalism was unlike any I have experienced." Back when I was contracting I visited a lot of sites, my heart would sink when it was an all male team, you just knew the tone would be different.

Yeah, let's just shun these people solely because of our prejudice based on gender.

Re: The power of role models

#59

Post by sanjeetsuhag » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:35 PM UTC

ErikVandeWater wrote: post #37

skywhopper wrote: post #12

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…

Are there any good sources that analyze the causes exodus of women from computer science? To solve these kinds of problems it would be helpful to learn the cause of the change.

I recommend reading "Unlocking the Clubhouse : Women in Computing" by Jane Margolis and Allan Fisher.

A good NPR story on this topic : http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/07/22/487069271/episo...

TL;DR: It was the rise of the personal computer. Boys got more access to personal computers thereby allowing them to get farther in the field.

Re: The power of role models

#60

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 7:35 PM UTC

ErikVandeWater wrote: post #37

skywhopper wrote: post #12

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…

Are there any good sources that analyze the causes exodus of women from computer science? To solve these kinds of problems it would be helpful to learn the cause of the change.

[deleted]