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The power of role models

commandcenter.blogspot.com

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Re: The power of role models

#31

Post by Oxitendwe »

4ad wrote: post #7

> The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is [...] to promote them. [...] To push them into positions of influence. I am all for equality in chances for all people, men and women, black and white, gay and straight, anything really, but this affirmative action "promote X because she is a women" (or black, or XXX) is something I will fight against with all my being and all my forces until the d…

I agree absolutely, it's disgusting. What sort of message does it send to women, that they cannot succeed without special treatment? We get nothing out of this.

Re: The power of role models

#33

Post by skywhopper »

dominotw wrote: post #4

>Nor were they wallflowers. what does wallflowers mean here? definition 3 ? http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wallflower

I think the core meaning, without UD's connotations, is someone who's present, but doesn't really participate. I believe the word comes from people who go to social events like dances but instead of going out on the dance floor to dance with everyone they stand along with walls and watch. "Shy" is not the right word for the context described by Rob Pike. Presumably the notional wallflowers at a tech conference or meeting would be people who didn't feel like any attempts at participation would be welcomed, taken seriously, or given due consideration. The non-wallflower astronomers are full and equal participants in the discussion.

Re: The power of role models

#34

Post by CJefferson »

trentnix wrote: post #21
jordanlev wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if we start from an assumption though that things are currently not meritocrous? Doesn't that then imply if we want to get to a place of full meritocracy some things need to be done that are different than the status quo?

I would assume that the solution wouldn't be to double down on bias hoping that bias in the opposite direction will somehow result in harmony. That's like a cable news network letting polemics on opposite sides of an issue (as if there are only to ways to look at an issue in the first place) scream at each other for a segment and then patting themselves on the back for their "balance". After all, they "presented both…

I disagree.

There are a number of papers (and I'm very afraid I'm on my phone right now, so I can't cite them. I am sorry for that) which show that things like severe gender imbalance are not self-correcting systems in the case of extreme bias -- you have to push them back closer to 50/50, but then the system will remain balanced.

This makes (to me) intuitive sense -- current staff / managers will tend to employ, and promote, people "like them", creating a self-perpetuating system.

Re: The power of role models

#35

Post by rdtsc »

Great point on role models. I like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper. I can't tell how much she appeals to women but I find her inspiring. One thing I like about her is she worked within an a huge bureaucratic organization, the Navy, and she figured out how to get things done. She is the one who came up with a principle of "It is easier to ask forgiveness than get permission".

Re: The power of role models

#36

Post by geofft »

dominotw wrote: post #20
pdq wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wallflower Definition 2

oh ok. What is wrong with being shy. 'none of them were wallflowers' seems like such an odd thing to say. As a shy person myself, hate this .

The definition says that you might refrain from either shyness (your own preference not to participate) or unpopularity (others' preference that you do not participate). I think the latter was more what was meant here.

I'm extremely shy in certain situations (for instance, I hate introducing myself to people at parties, bars, etc.), but if I'm in a meeting for a group I'm involved with, I will absolutely say as much as I'm allowed to say.

Re: The power of role models

#37

Post by ErikVandeWater »

skywhopper wrote: post #12

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…

Are there any good sources that analyze the causes exodus of women from computer science? To solve these kinds of problems it would be helpful to learn the cause of the change.

Re: The power of role models

#38

Post by Oxitendwe »

sagichmal wrote: post #18
4ad wrote: post #7

> The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is [...] to promote them. [...] To push them into positions of influence. I am all for equality in chances for all people, men and women, black and white, gay and straight, anything really, but this affirmative action "promote X because she is a women" (or black, or XXX) is something I will fight against with all my being and all my forces until the d…

Your "strong feelings" are misguided. As a society or [sub]culture we are not judged on our efforts or philosophies but on our outcomes. And the stakes are higher proportional to the power we collectively wield. If women or other minorities are disproportionately under-represented in our communities then that fact, that outcome, deserves direct acknowledgement, attention, and recompense.

>that fact, that outcome, deserves direct acknowledgement, attention, and recompense.

Why? Your statement has an implicit assumption - that all demographics have equal interest and potential in every field and community. This has not been proven and if it is not true, then what is the point of making sure everyone has equal representation in every field?

Re: The power of role models

#39

Post by stale2002 »

hd4 wrote: post #3

This is a fine and good idea, as long as the central pillar is that we remain meritocratic first, everything else should come after that.

Exactly. We need to be meritocratic.

And the current world that we live in is NOT meritocratic, as half of the good talent is getting driven out of the industry.

The way to promote meritocracy IS to support women. Anti diversity initiatives and environments are unmeritocratic.

Re: The power of role models

#40

Post by throw_away_777 »

In my opinion, the solution proposed in the article of: " choosing a women over a man when growing your team, just because" is counter-productive. These kind of suggestions cause people to question why a minority got promoted, if it was because of qualifications or because of reverse racism. Reverse racism is still racism, and it breeds resentment.
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