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The power of role models

commandcenter.blogspot.com

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Re: The power of role models

#11

Post by bitexploder »

hd4 wrote: post #3

This is a fine and good idea, as long as the central pillar is that we remain meritocratic first, everything else should come after that.

This is an interesting area sort of like affirmative action. If we don't cede some ground to the notion meritocracy, might that not delay the length of time it takes to increase diversity in the field? Will this create the best possible computing and technology world possible -- cutting out or limiting half the population? That is the point Rob is subtly making. We may have to trade a little merit now for increased diversity and a stronger future world of computing. To be clear merit is the easiest way to go about things. That said, I have a daughter and am not sure I would want her in my field as it stands right now (high end infosec). It is even more male dominated than typical engineering and dev. Things to think long and hard about.

edit: we are also assuming things are an in general meritocracy in technology amd I suspect that isn't true, but that is a different but relatef discussion.

Re: The power of role models

#12

Post by skywhopper »

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since.

Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, women are even less well represented.

This isn't just a bad thing for the women who are harassed, mistreated, or just made to feel unwelcome. It's a bad thing for the industry. If women are unwelcome, we're throwing away half of the talented engineers before they even get started.

For all those reasons, Rob is right that role models are important. But even more important: we need to stop chasing women from the field. You have to stop the bleeding before you can start improving. The recent stories out of Uber make it clear that the technology industry is at risk of moving backwards if we aren't already.

Re: The power of role models

#14

Post by jordanlev »

4ad wrote: post #7

> The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is [...] to promote them. [...] To push them into positions of influence. I am all for equality in chances for all people, men and women, black and white, gay and straight, anything really, but this affirmative action "promote X because she is a women" (or black, or XXX) is something I will fight against with all my being and all my forces until the d…

Cool. What if it turned out that in some places there is proof that what's going on is "promote X, because he is a man"... would you then fight against that with all your being?

Re: The power of role models

#15

Post by throwaway5752 »

4ad wrote: post #7

> The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is [...] to promote them. [...] To push them into positions of influence. I am all for equality in chances for all people, men and women, black and white, gay and straight, anything really, but this affirmative action "promote X because she is a women" (or black, or XXX) is something I will fight against with all my being and all my forces until the d…

"this type of thinking is the most dangerous thing facing humanity today, worse than global warming"

I disagree with you, and am curious how you would justify your position.

Re: The power of role models

#16

Post by daenney »

4ad wrote: post #7

> The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is [...] to promote them. [...] To push them into positions of influence. I am all for equality in chances for all people, men and women, black and white, gay and straight, anything really, but this affirmative action "promote X because she is a women" (or black, or XXX) is something I will fight against with all my being and all my forces until the d…

Promote has two meanings:

> Further the progress of (something, especially a cause, venture, or aim); support or actively encourage.

And

> Advance or raise (someone) to a higher position or rank.

From my reading of the article Rob is mostly arguing for the first and not for giving them positions of power purely based on their gender. But having women in positions of power is important and we should ensure to at least take away impediments that prevent them from achieving that.

Re: The power of role models

#17

Post by 4ad »

jordanlev wrote: post #14
4ad wrote: post #7

> The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is [...] to promote them. [...] To push them into positions of influence. I am all for equality in chances for all people, men and women, black and white, gay and straight, anything really, but this affirmative action "promote X because she is a women" (or black, or XXX) is something I will fight against with all my being and all my forces until the d…

Cool. What if it turned out that in some places there is proof that what's going on is "promote X, because he is a man"... would you then fight against that with all your being?

Of course I would. I strongly want injustice and discrimination to end in the world (which is why I am against affirmative action in the first place).

Re: The power of role models

#18

Post by sagichmal »

4ad wrote: post #7

> The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is [...] to promote them. [...] To push them into positions of influence. I am all for equality in chances for all people, men and women, black and white, gay and straight, anything really, but this affirmative action "promote X because she is a women" (or black, or XXX) is something I will fight against with all my being and all my forces until the d…

Your "strong feelings" are misguided. As a society or [sub]culture we are not judged on our efforts or philosophies but on our outcomes. And the stakes are higher proportional to the power we collectively wield. If women or other minorities are disproportionately under-represented in our communities then that fact, that outcome, deserves direct acknowledgement, attention, and recompense.

Re: The power of role models

#19

Post by projektir »

hd4 wrote: post #3

This is a fine and good idea, as long as the central pillar is that we remain meritocratic first, everything else should come after that.

Meritocracy paradoxically seems to lead to worse results overall. Remember that measuring merit is effectively impossible in any kind of reliable and systematic fashion.

Which means its measured by heuristics, and heuristics are very sensitive to preconceptions, stereotypes, etc.

Re: The power of role models

#20

Post by dominotw »

pdq wrote: post #5
dominotw wrote: post #4

>Nor were they wallflowers. what does wallflowers mean here? definition 3 ? http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wallflower

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wallflower Definition 2

oh ok. What is wrong with being shy. 'none of them were wallflowers' seems like such an odd thing to say. As a shy person myself, hate this .
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