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How to Be a Stoic

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Re: How to Be a Stoic

#71

Post by Nokinside »

Kenji wrote: post #46

Note that stoicism is NOT rejecting and ignoring your feelings. If you feel bad about something, that too is a fact that you have to accept and deal with in the best way possible. Stoicism is about keeping your head up in the face of adversity, and not about becoming a hardened robot capable of taking any punishment. I think a lot of people on HN might get this wrong.

This is the modern Buddhist and psychology influenced interpretation of stoicism and apatheia.

Personally I don't see much evidence that this really was the case in the golden era of Stoicsm. Freedom from all passions was not the same as removal of emotion, but it was very close to it.

> not about becoming a hardened robot capable of taking any punishment.

This was exactly what Stoics of the old saw as ideal and this view was propagated in stories. Epicetus was a cripple and according to Origen his leg was broken by his master.

>Epictetus' master one day was twisting his slave's leg to help the time pass. Epictetus said calmly, "If you go on doing that, you will break my leg." The twisting went on and the leg broke. Epictetus observed mildly, "Didn't I tell you that you would break my leg?"

The story of Gaius Mucius Scaevola was also propagated by stoics. Mucius kept his hand over the fire without indicating any pain while it burned.

Re: How to Be a Stoic

#72

Post by Mendenhall »

Saw a few remarks about the "bleakness" or "uncaring" of the "universe".

That view of the universe is in error, people are part of the universe and they certainly care. To view the universe without humanity is to not view the universe.

There is bleakness in the universe for sure, but there is also compassion and caring.

Re: How to Be a Stoic

#73

Post by FabHK »

Here some great contemporary introductions to Stoicism:

1. William B. Irvine, "A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy", https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/0195...

This is an introduction to Stoic thought as it applies today by a professor in philosophy, very clearly written. Great for first exposure. It (sensibly) skips some of the more arcane stuff, such as Stoic metaphysics (historically relevant, but really obsolete).

2. Donald Robertson, "Stoicism and the Art of Happiness", https://www.amazon.com/Stoicism-Art-Happiness-Teach-Yourself...

This is a touch more academic and historic on one hand, and very practical and text-book-like on the other hand, in that it has self-assessments, key points, exercises for every section. Excellent second book. The author also has a course, blog and FAQ at http://donaldrobertson.name

3. Epictetus' Enchiridion is available on Project Gutenberg, btw. It's very short, and many things are not really relevant today anymore, yet surprisingly many sections still "speak to us".

4. Note also that Tom Wolfe's huge novel "A Man in Full" is suffused with Stoic themes.

I find Stoicism quite wise, and still substantial enough when you subtract all the obsolete superstition (which cannot be said of, for example, Abrahamic religions). Certainly good for tranquility and empathy. Sometimes hard to translate into positive action, though, I find.

Re: How to Be a Stoic

#74

Post by jib »

0x445442 wrote: post #53
Havoc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is there someone among you HNers who has retained a positive outlook by believing that the universe is a bleak, chaotic place with no intrinsic meaning to the things happening in it? Yep. Though I'd suggest you take a closer look at that sentence of yours. Specifically the "bleak, chaotic" part. That's already a very negative judgement and in contradiction with the neutral "no intrinsic meaning" part. >I have found…

I'd suggest what keeps man from eating man, on the scale that lions eat zebras, is a general belief in a authority higher than man.

I'd suggest that isn't the case. I don't need a parent figure for me to fear or appease in order to act kindly to others, nor do I expect them to need one to act kindly to me.

Re: How to Be a Stoic

#75

Post by 1_player »

osti wrote: post #48

You desire to LIVE "according to Nature"? Oh, you noble Stoics, what fraud of words! Imagine to yourselves a being like Nature, boundlessly extravagant, boundlessly indifferent, without purpose or consideration, without pity or justice, at once fruitful and barren and uncertain: imagine to yourselves INDIFFERENCE as a power--how COULD you live in accordance with such indifference? To live--is not that just endeavorin…

Thanks for this, osti.

As a stoicism fanboy I partly agree, and if it wasn't pouring outside I'd run to my local bookshop to get something from this Nietzsche fella. Any suggestion?

Re: How to Be a Stoic

#76

Post by FabHK »

Baeocystin wrote: post #61
osti wrote: post #48

You desire to LIVE "according to Nature"? Oh, you noble Stoics, what fraud of words! Imagine to yourselves a being like Nature, boundlessly extravagant, boundlessly indifferent, without purpose or consideration, without pity or justice, at once fruitful and barren and uncertain: imagine to yourselves INDIFFERENCE as a power--how COULD you live in accordance with such indifference? To live--is not that just endeavorin…

I admire many aspects of the stoic outlook, but Nietzsche's criticism is delightfully needle-sharp.

I don't interpret Stoicism as succumbing to the naturalistic fallacy though (as in, what happens naturally is good, "is=ought"), but rather see it as an epistemological injunction, that is: you have to see things in the eyes and try hard to see and understand the world as it is.

Re: How to Be a Stoic

#77

Post by FabHK »

hartator wrote: post #65

Kudos for writing about Stoicism. However, I think it's pretty weak article. No mentions of negative visualization or Seneca while both are roots of the Stoic philosophy.

Agree, but to be fair, it's just 3 paragraphs or so, and it's not even aiming to cover the fundamentals. More of a "look here what I found, and how it's helped me."

Re: How to Be a Stoic

#78

Post by hardlianotion »

hartator wrote: post #65

Kudos for writing about Stoicism. However, I think it's pretty weak article. No mentions of negative visualization or Seneca while both are roots of the Stoic philosophy.

Some discussion of the famously stoic Seneca from BBC's excellent In Our Times series, at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08fh0bh

Re: How to Be a Stoic

#79

Post by FabHK »

vertex-four wrote: post #44
tim333 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "bleak, chaotic place with no intrinsic meaning" conflates two things unfairly. Consider a beautiful sunrise on a tropical beach. It's part of the universe and not bleak and chaotic yet you don't have to believe it has a meaning enjoy it. As an atheist, the survival of us and our ancestors for ~4bn years suggests the universe is not so bleak in parts.

I dunno, I see the continued survival of our species as a cruel joke - certainly bleak - given the amount of harm we do to each other and everything around us.

Well, I take away just the opposite though.

Suppose there really was a loving creator that put this all in place just for us. Then, yeah, we've made quite a mess of it, and it really all rather sucks.

However, if it's just a bleak, uncaring universe, then the fact that we're around is amazing in the first place, and the fact that we've managed to carve out a niche where we can, by and large, thrive in ever larger numbers [1] is outright awesome and amazing.

It also then enjoins us to "keep on fighting the good fight". For example, I don't think there is "automatic karma" imposed somehow - it is incumbent on us humans to impose justice as well as we can.

[1] The notion that things are terrible and getting worse is wrong, I think. See for example

- Julian Simon, "The State of Humanity"

- Steven Pinker, "The Better Angels of our Nature"

- Max Roser, "Our World in Data", https://ourworldindata.org

etc.

Re: How to Be a Stoic

#80

Post by firepoet »

Havoc wrote: post #22
gfiorav wrote: post #4

Well, it turns out I've been a stoic all this time, I'm finding out. It blows me away how that part about taking every problem as a chance to learn and become a better "wrestler" fits right in with my natural conclusions. The rest of it describes me adequately also. I'm reading Epictetus now, thanks for sharing.

>turns out I've been a stoic all this time, I'm finding out. It seems to come naturally to some, especially those that tend to adopt a somewhat cold analytical view of the world

You might have dropped the word "cold" and been a bit more inclusive.
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