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FCC weakens net neutrality rule in a prelude to larger rollbacks

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Re: FCC weakens net neutrality rule in a prelude to larger rollbacks

#201
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just start dropping packets where there's congestion Aside from being normal, do you think this is preferable because it is fair? I think of QoS as a way of allowing more types of SLA to exist. Maybe Youtube makes a deal with T-Mobile to keep videos playing longer (before packets start dropping) in exchange for money. This money might allow T-Mobile to invest in other parts of its infrastructure. Isn't any backbone…

Maybe Youtube makes a deal with T-Mobile to keep videos playing longer (before packets start dropping) in exchange for money. This money might allow T-Mobile to invest in other parts of its infrastructure. Another possibility: as a major ISP nears network capacity, they can implicitly (or explicitly, depending on law) solicit revenue streams from Youtube and many others for "priority access" to their somewhat- or com…

You are describing a content lock-in dystopia. Yes, this would be anticompetitive (and appropriately addressed by the FTC or DOJ, not the FCC) and it is among the more unlikely scenarios.

Re: FCC weakens net neutrality rule in a prelude to larger rollbacks

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A fair traffic management policy would allow for YouTube users to consume bandwidth in exact proportion to their share of overall demand for bandwidth. I think this statement is in effect a straw man, since the relevant consideration for QoS is the timing of consuming that bandwidth. If you mean instantaneous bandwidth, then you are saying that both Youtube customers and Netflix customers should be able to use a ci…

> "If you mean instantaneous bandwidth, then you are saying that both Youtube customers and Netflix customers should be able to use a circuit that they primarily use for watching video to also be equally optimized for real time protocols. > If you argue that a VOIP customer should be able to place a call with the absolute minimal latency the network can provide, even if it means that video content will (on average) b…

> And none of this requires any traffic shaping rules that deliberately identify what's video or VoIP

True, so why is net neutrality necessary then? Do you think ISPs are making this possible out of the goodness of their hearts?

I'd argue that their profit motive has made this happen because it's what consumers demand, and the internet (protocols and services) has changed rapidly enough that entrenched patterns have not really emerged.

Re: FCC weakens net neutrality rule in a prelude to larger rollbacks

#203
post #51

Does anyone with a strong understanding of internetworking, peering and transit contract negotiation actually believe that "net neutrality" is possible? traffic shaping of saturated links seems like a necessary outcome to not undermine the smaller users (i.e. low bandwidth communications) that are impacted by heavy users (i.e. video streaming) if two peering parties can't come to terms on cost sharing for link upgrad…

Interesting example there, because if you apply traffic shaping against video streaming you either force it to reduce quality or ruin it completely. What everyone is worried about is that ISPs will threaten to "shape" Netflix traffic unless Netflix pay them - straightforward extortion. Or zero-rate Facebook traffic while counting use of independent non-Facebook news sources against users' quotas.

That's not how it will play out, though. Even without network neutrality rules in-place, that would run afoul of anti-trust and consumer protection law.

The way ISPs will extract money is by nominally creating a two -tiered network. The lower tier will be the default tier. All external traffic will be routed over it by default. Entities like NetFlix will be able to pay the ISP to have their traffic routed over higher tier. The higher tier will have better latency, will be charged against an end-users throughput meter at a discounted rate, or both.

It will be a form of hidden price discrimination and thus a form of hidden tax on the market. price discrimination is usually a good thing, and even a hidden tax isn't per se bad. The reason this is bad is it will allow the ISPs to extract far more wealth from the Internet than they would ever add by improved and cheaper service.

A free market requires transparency in pricing between Alice and Bob. If Mallory can insert herself between Alice and Bob, she can obscure pricing signals. That means Bob will have a more difficult time assessing the worth of services provided him by Mallory and Alice. That also implies he'll have trouble assessing the value proposition of competitors to Alice and Mallory.

Comcast may try to extort money from Netflix, but alot of people assume that in the long-run Netflix would benefit from the tactic. They have a huge first-mover advantage. Comcast would never be able to provide a service like Netflix as well as Netflix does. The result will be that while Comcast may extract profits from Netflix, Netflix and other incumbents will have less competition and in the long-term might even benefit relative to net neutrality. Comcast will effectively provide a moat for Netflix and other incumbents in the form of higher barrier to market entrance for startups, as the incumbents will pay an effectively cheaper per-byte rate (much cheaper than in a net neutrality world) given their huge volume. Furthermore, incumbents will be a cash-cow to the ISPs, creating significant incentive to be hostile to competitors.

The losers will be consumers, prospective competitors, and overall technological and market vibrancy. But all of this will, again, be largely hidden. The solution is simple, obvious, fair, well-understood, but stark, especially in the context of a conservative narrative about regulation. It also has tons of precedent going back hundreds of years in terms of the legal and economic study of common carriers. The end-to-end principle of networks is conceptually related, too. The malady will be an obscure low-grade fever that saps value and weakens competitiveness, but will largely go ignored over time, after which people will wonder why the pace of innovation slowed down so much.

Re: FCC weakens net neutrality rule in a prelude to larger rollbacks

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "If you mean instantaneous bandwidth, then you are saying that both Youtube customers and Netflix customers should be able to use a circuit that they primarily use for watching video to also be equally optimized for real time protocols. > If you argue that a VOIP customer should be able to place a call with the absolute minimal latency the network can provide, even if it means that video content will (on average) b…

> And none of this requires any traffic shaping rules that deliberately identify what's video or VoIP True, so why is net neutrality necessary then? Do you think ISPs are making this possible out of the goodness of their hearts? I'd argue that their profit motive has made this happen because it's what consumers demand, and the internet (protocols and services) has changed rapidly enough that entrenched patterns have…

Making what happen? ISP's aren't deploying fq_codel, but they're still buying Sandvine deep packet inspection equipment.

Re: FCC weakens net neutrality rule in a prelude to larger rollbacks

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because many customers don't actually want a dumb pipe. Dumb pipes don't come with email addresses. Dumb pipes serve YouTube more slowly, and might not have the capacity for HD/4K video. (Look at what server the video comes from; if you're on a major ISP, the server name likely has your ISP's name in it.) Dumb pipes serve Netflix more slowly. Dumb pipes can't hold as many customers. Dumb pipes might not get as many c…

> Dumb pipes don't come with email addresses. Neither do rack servers. End customers don't buy the dumb pipe directly. > Dumb pipes can't hold as many customers. The same fiber can transfer the same amount of traffic. > Dumb pipes cost more. Cost more than paying monopoly prices for services? > I'd be in favor of separating out the "dumb pipe" as a utility, and then having ISPs operate independently from that. I thin…

> Neither do rack servers. End customers don't buy the dumb pipe directly.

Of course; they buy it from ISPs, and now you have the same problem again.

> The same fiber can transfer the same amount of traffic.

It doesn't matter how much your fiber can transfer if the arrangements at the meet-me room can't get you that much content for a price you want to pay.

> Cost more than paying monopoly prices for services?

For the same bandwidth? Yes. Raw bandwidth costs more than a plan from an ISP offering that much bandwidth.

> Would Comcast rather have network neutrality or divest its ISP/TV business?

I don't want a single choice of ISP, whether that ISP has agreed to network neutrality restrictions or to divest any particular services. I'd like a dozen ISPs to choose from, and then the rest stops causing a problem.

Re: FCC weakens net neutrality rule in a prelude to larger rollbacks

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between shaping traffic to better fit the capacity available, and constricting traffic since you're incentivized to push alternate traffic from a business partner. The latter is what NN advocates are trying to discourage, and it does arguably mess with the 'level playing field' notion.

I don't think this distinction is as trivial as you think. Especially in a legal sense. Unless you want judges adjudicating in the Potter Stewart "I know it when I see it" sense, which can get scary.

If your traffic shaping rules are different depending on protocol or port number or source or destination IP or AS, then that's discriminatory. Within the space of packet scheduling policies that treat all protocols equally, it is still possible to be somewhat discriminatory and it is still possible to do good QoS. Further and more careful regulations may be necessary, but it is certainly possible to cleanly prohibit a large category of bad behavior without having harmful side effects.

Re: FCC weakens net neutrality rule in a prelude to larger rollbacks

#207
I can see how a bit of outrage about this is how the NRA got to the place it is today. This by itself isn't that meaningful, but anything can be politicized, turn public opinion and gain momentum. That's why the NRA's position is to say NO to any kind of gun regulation, because they know that's how you ensure guns are made available and gun culture is for sure secure.

In the tech community I see people rising up against any kind of movement against net neutrality. And I do not want to see it erode. But I worry that by becoming averse to any reversal, any compromise, the communities stance will eventually be so politicized that it is just another part of the unreasonable and ultra biased political landscape that grinds progress to a halt.

Re: FCC weakens net neutrality rule in a prelude to larger rollbacks

#208
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole thing should be a public utility like water, electricity, and sewer.

Yes, just like sewers: http://www.ajc.com/news/local-govt--politics/atlanta-area-st... . Also, nobody advocating for "treating telecom like a utility" is actually advocating for that. Try looking up the cost of a county water/sewer hookup sometime. It's not free, and your $50/month water bill doesn't pay for it. I'm paying off a $30,000 bill to get "public utility" water and sewer access. That's pretty typical. If we…

You don't have to speculate, it's cheap:

https://arstechnica.com/business/2015/08/how-a-small-city-of...

Re: FCC weakens net neutrality rule in a prelude to larger rollbacks

#209
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe Youtube makes a deal with T-Mobile to keep videos playing longer (before packets start dropping) in exchange for money. This money might allow T-Mobile to invest in other parts of its infrastructure. Another possibility: as a major ISP nears network capacity, they can implicitly (or explicitly, depending on law) solicit revenue streams from Youtube and many others for "priority access" to their somewhat- or com…

You are describing a content lock-in dystopia. Yes, this would be anticompetitive (and appropriately addressed by the FTC or DOJ, not the FCC) and it is among the more unlikely scenarios.

The parent post is a little hyperbolic, but ISPs are certainly willing to artificially limit capacity upgrades as a way to extract tolls from content providers. Remember the spat between Verizon and Level3/Netflix?

http://web.archive.org/web/20160405105037/http://blog.level3...

Both networks had plenty of capacity internally; the bottleneck was a single router at each interconnect location which Verizon refused to upgrade.

Re: FCC weakens net neutrality rule in a prelude to larger rollbacks

#210
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe Youtube makes a deal with T-Mobile to keep videos playing longer (before packets start dropping) in exchange for money. This money might allow T-Mobile to invest in other parts of its infrastructure. Another possibility: as a major ISP nears network capacity, they can implicitly (or explicitly, depending on law) solicit revenue streams from Youtube and many others for "priority access" to their somewhat- or com…

You are describing a content lock-in dystopia. Yes, this would be anticompetitive (and appropriately addressed by the FTC or DOJ, not the FCC) and it is among the more unlikely scenarios.

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