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Why Ever Stop Playing Video Games

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Re: Why Ever Stop Playing Video Games

#61

Post by panic »

Great article, but I disagree with this section:

Fourth: economics. Since every game is reliant on this addictive incentive system, every gamer harbors a game theorist, a situational logician blindly valorizing the optimization of quantified indices of “growth” — in other words, an economist. Resource management is to video games what ­African-American English is to rap music or what the visible sex act is to pornography — the element without which all else is unimaginable. In games as in the market, numbers come first. They have to go up. Our job is to keep up with them, and all else can wait or go to hell.

Numbers and economic incentive systems show up in many games, but they're not fundamental. Take a look at games like Journey, Portal, Gone Home, Yume Nikki, or many others which work just fine without numbers. The creator of Undertale, Toby Fox, had this to say in an interview (http://existentialgamer.com/interview-toby-fox-undertale):

TEG: I really loved the fact that many of the branches in UNDERTALE‘s story seemed to lead to miniature “voids” where I was forced to contemplate what I’d just experienced without being “improved” in any quantitative way. Do you think that as gamers and people we have become addicted to numbers / money / experience in general?

TF: The addictive quality of “numbers increasing” is what drives a lot of games. But some of the most important things in life can’t be accurately represented by numbers. As for people’s lives, I have no comment.

Re: Why Ever Stop Playing Video Games

#62

Post by M_Grey »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #44
M_Grey wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that videogames fill my "brain in neutral" space very nicely. If I'm just not in the mood to read, or get out, pick up some new skill or polish an old one, hang out with friends or do something productive (and sometimes you truly want to do nothing )... I find that videogames are a nice choice. I especially enjoy combining them with unabridged audiobooks that I might not otherwise bother reading/listening to o…

I believe the essence of what you're saying is true, but I dispute the overall reasonableness of what you describe. The vast majority of video games are either built around the principles of addiction, or require a tremendous amount of time in muscle memory training. What you're describing seems like describing how enjoyable it can be to smoke one cigarette a month. (assuming that actually felt good). Could be true-…

You can build the skills necessary to play games over time, and of course it greatly depends on the games you play. I would tend to stay away from pure time sinks like MMO's, and I've lost the taste for 2D fighters. That said, I've been playing FPS' since FPS', and those skills wake up whenever I play for more than ten or twenty minutes.

I don't see a correlation with cigarettes, which offer you nothing beneficial, are physically addictive on the level of heroin, and are one of the leading causes of human death.

Re: Why Ever Stop Playing Video Games

#63

Post by emodendroket »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #44
M_Grey wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that videogames fill my "brain in neutral" space very nicely. If I'm just not in the mood to read, or get out, pick up some new skill or polish an old one, hang out with friends or do something productive (and sometimes you truly want to do nothing )... I find that videogames are a nice choice. I especially enjoy combining them with unabridged audiobooks that I might not otherwise bother reading/listening to o…

I believe the essence of what you're saying is true, but I dispute the overall reasonableness of what you describe. The vast majority of video games are either built around the principles of addiction, or require a tremendous amount of time in muscle memory training. What you're describing seems like describing how enjoyable it can be to smoke one cigarette a month. (assuming that actually felt good). Could be true-…

> The vast majority of video games are either built around the principles of addiction, or require a tremendous amount of time in muscle memory training.

Well, define "vast majority of video games." Certainly that's true if we mean F2P phone games. For a lot of others I am not so sure.

Re: Why Ever Stop Playing Video Games

#64

Post by KirinDave »

some-guy wrote: post #40
robertcorey wrote: post #36

Playing starcraft 2 totally consumed my life from about 18-22. It was very similar to a drug addiction except I convinced myself it was positive because I would eventually be a professional. My addiction prevented my from working on the underlying issues that caused my to seek refuge in the game. It also left me with a host of physical RSI problems that have been a huge negative to my life + career. Although if I had…

Very similar story to me: I played Starcraft 2 throughout college in a competitive fashion and made me feel worse. There was a period of time after that where after quitting I wouldn't touch a video game. I've since picked up a Nintendo 3DS as an experiment now that I take long train rides to work, and it's been an amazing, relaxing experience. I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are many different ways to enjoy…

Player Vs Player games are unique. They're designed around making players constantly navigate a shifting metagame, fighting each other to generate content out of the existing field.

It's sort of a recipe for unhappiness, as the entire system devolves into, "Who can find the most abusively unfair strategy first, and then exploit it." Since most of these games simply cannot have the time devoted to them to make them "balanced" at the breakneck pace the market demands, they never really achieve equilibrium and reward only the most heavily invested.

Re: Why Ever Stop Playing Video Games

#65

Post by ZeroFries »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #44
M_Grey wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that videogames fill my "brain in neutral" space very nicely. If I'm just not in the mood to read, or get out, pick up some new skill or polish an old one, hang out with friends or do something productive (and sometimes you truly want to do nothing )... I find that videogames are a nice choice. I especially enjoy combining them with unabridged audiobooks that I might not otherwise bother reading/listening to o…

I believe the essence of what you're saying is true, but I dispute the overall reasonableness of what you describe. The vast majority of video games are either built around the principles of addiction, or require a tremendous amount of time in muscle memory training. What you're describing seems like describing how enjoyable it can be to smoke one cigarette a month. (assuming that actually felt good). Could be true-…

His ice cream analogy was on point. There are plenty of video games which dont match your criteria. The ones that do (albeit the majority of mainstream games) become popular for obvious reasons, but one can even enjoy those in moderation if they have the mental skills to do so (like the people who can smoke cigarettes ocassionally and not become addicted).

Re: Why Ever Stop Playing Video Games

#66

Post by btown »

laplace2 wrote: post #25

I've found learning and creating to be more fulfilling activities than videogames. That's not to advocate against gaming, or to generalize all games, but I've thought about how much time I spent playing games in the past and if I was happy with what I gained from it: I largely was not. I felt as if I was lacking in skills that I wished I had, and believe I could have learned in that time. I'm happier with myself afte…

I feel like a lot of people desire validation and achievement as short-term feedback. When we go through middle and high school, you can find achievement in short-term feedback on academic assignments, or in extracurricular activities where competitive matchups are rather frequent. (The American focus on short-term "A for Effort" grading is debatable, in this context.) Then you go to college or the real world, and suddenly the goalposts become much further away, all eggs in a nebulous basket: academic research that takes years to gain the next level of credentials, career progression, dating, financial stability. Learning requires you to subconsciously justify self-designed goalposts - you have to set your own goals for when you can be happy with what you've learned - and that's just as nebulous as the real world.

I think many gamers would envy, and aspire to, your ability to have confidence in self-set learning goalposts. But rather than despair at not being able to do so, if they can sit down on their couch and be spoon-fed goals, a process to get there, and Steam Trophies when they do... and they are truly legitimately happy (a local rather than global maximum, to be sure, but who ever achieves the global maximum of happiness anyways?)... who's to argue against that?

Efforts like Khan Academy and Duolingo understand this dynamic; they break things down into achievable interim goals, with flashy rewards as you progress. But it's hard for serious learning apps to reach the mental intensity and dopamine release of, say, a successful boss fight. A company that can figure that out would do a lot of good for humanity... but why wouldn't they just be a game studio instead?

Re: Why Ever Stop Playing Video Games

#67

Post by civilian »

mikestew wrote: post #38
civilian wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad just turned 65 and he still has no interest in video games except for solitaire. But I really think that he'd enjoy video games, especially as a way to keep an active mental life in retirement. I tried to explain the "it's almost-real physics!" angle of Kerbal Space Program, but that wasn't persuasive. Any tips? Also, have you played Overwatch or TF2? I found both of those more interesting than Titanfall-- and…

"Hero" type games don't interest me much, and though Team Fortress interests me, just never made time for it. But, yeah, I've always been the one to sit on the flag with a rocket launcher, throw my warm body at a territory when no one else will (K/D, phfffftt ). Don't see why that won't still serve me well in my old age.

Agreed at ignoring K/D :D

Hmmm. So I don't think of Overwatch as a "Hero" type game (although I'm not sure what you mean by that). I think Overwatch classes map to TF2 classes pretty straightforwardly. And there's no leveling or grinding for functional items, so it is maybe even a better than TF2 in that regard?

Re: Why Ever Stop Playing Video Games

#68

Post by M_Grey »

emodendroket wrote: post #63
droopyEyelids wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the essence of what you're saying is true, but I dispute the overall reasonableness of what you describe. The vast majority of video games are either built around the principles of addiction, or require a tremendous amount of time in muscle memory training. What you're describing seems like describing how enjoyable it can be to smoke one cigarette a month. (assuming that actually felt good). Could be true-…

> The vast majority of video games are either built around the principles of addiction, or require a tremendous amount of time in muscle memory training. Well, define "vast majority of video games." Certainly that's true if we mean F2P phone games. For a lot of others I am not so sure.

To be fair, when it comes to those F2P phones games, I would start to agree with the cigarette analogy... those are just skinner boxes with coin slots.

Re: Why Ever Stop Playing Video Games

#69

Post by gozur88 »

scottmcleod wrote: post #10
paublyrne wrote: post #4

I would love to play games still. I certainly enjoyed it in my teens and in periods in my 20s where I had more free time than I do now. They can be a real time sink though, so I don't allow myself to buy a console. I barely find time for the pursuits I want to enjoy as it is.

"..so I don't allow myself to buy a console." this is common with so many other people I know (and try to convince to game with me as Adults). I think its all too common to watch Nextflix & HBO for 20 hours in a week, but video games are taboo, despite being more social and cognitively enhancing.

The difference is there's no length to most video games. If you sit down to watch a movie you've blocked out ninety minutes (or whatever), and when the movie is over you're not going to tell yourself "I'll just watch for five more minutes."

If you're the kind of person who can't ignore that voice you'll end up spending a lot more time gaming than you intended, particularly if your game of choice has some sort of level treadmill.

Re: Why Ever Stop Playing Video Games

#70

Post by Cpoll »

KirinDave wrote: post #64
some-guy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very similar story to me: I played Starcraft 2 throughout college in a competitive fashion and made me feel worse. There was a period of time after that where after quitting I wouldn't touch a video game. I've since picked up a Nintendo 3DS as an experiment now that I take long train rides to work, and it's been an amazing, relaxing experience. I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are many different ways to enjoy…

Player Vs Player games are unique. They're designed around making players constantly navigate a shifting metagame, fighting each other to generate content out of the existing field. It's sort of a recipe for unhappiness, as the entire system devolves into, "Who can find the most abusively unfair strategy first, and then exploit it." Since most of these games simply cannot have the time devoted to them to make them "b…

> "Who can find the most abusively unfair strategy first, and then exploit it."

I'm not sure I agree with this. "Finding" the best strategy rewards you for a week at most, until the community absorbs the strategy. Then you're no farther than the people you were beating last week.

Most games have co-opted the word "metagame" to describe this phenomenon. Someone discovers an effective strategy, it becomes the metagame, and competitive play revolves around polishing understanding and execution as it pertains to the metagame.

Imbalanced games tend to self-balance at higher levels - all the crap that doesn't work just disappears from high-level players' playbooks (except occasionally as surprise gimmicks).

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