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Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

nytimes.com

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Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#81

Post by goodcanadian »

gwern wrote: post #2

Does VX explain how the two women survived despite using bare hands to administer an apparently skin-absorbable poison? It has binary agent formulations, so each women could have one half on her hand and avoid any contamination by swiping very fast.

The BBC article (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39073389) mentions that one of the two women who interacted with Kim also became ill, and also that the woman who "accosted" him immediately went to wash her hands. It is not clear to me if this is the same woman or the other one.

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#82

Post by rukuu001 »

rdtsc wrote: post #77
NamTaf wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because slicing someone's head off requires you to be there, next to them, as it happens. You're standing next to the body as it gargles and bleeds everywhere and security will descend on you in a big way. Wiping someone's face then bailing is something that the target will shrug off as 'some crazy' until some time later it kills them. This buys you time to get out of the place before anyone realises the full extent…

I would even say it cares that other dissidents notice and understand exactly who did it. Had this been a robbery or some car accident it would not have been as effective. The message is "we are coming after you"

I remember a long time ago ('97) there was a major defection from the North Korean camp to the South.

Couple days later, in Seoul, the North Koreans assassinated some other guy who'd defected 10 years earlier.

Not only is the message "We're coming for you," but also "you can never feel safe again."

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#84

Post by rz2k »

sasas wrote: post #75
tlow wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. And who knows what the affects of that were. But I do not agree with the claim that this is interesting in this context as it seems irrelevant to the discussion.

> But I do not agree with the claim that this is interesting in this context as it seems irrelevant to the discussion The discussion appears to be on the topic if we assume the topic is VX or nerve agents in general. I assume this is in line with your intention for posting a series of Wikipedia links on the subject in this thread, which I found both relevant and interesting. The reasons why I suggested that the dumpi…

Those interesting issues could be their own post. For this one I think that interesting tangents would be a discussion about the magnitude of the lethal chemical weapons industries, and the possibility of large dumping operations allowing people to sequester small samples.

I think a lot of weapons are poorly thought out when it comes to the long term, such as land mines. However, since the purpose of chemical weapons is often to murder enough people that you can take their land, deterioration in a natural setting could be built in.

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#85

Post by jorblumesea »

_wp3r wrote: post #78
GigabyteCoin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So all Kim Jong-Nam had to do to survive was walk into a washroom and wipe his face clean with soap and water?

He would have greatly increased his chances. Assuming that the agent used was run of the mill V/G agent and not a specialty delivery variety. In reality atropine and pralidoxime(antidote sorta) administration would have most likely saved him, but it would be very unlikely for a medical professional to deduce that the threat was cholinesterase inhibition(nerve agent poisoning).

I also doubt that airports have this on hand in many parts of the world. Maybe in the US where fears are stoked about a chemical attack.

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#86

Post by justincormack »

rdtsc wrote: post #77
NamTaf wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because slicing someone's head off requires you to be there, next to them, as it happens. You're standing next to the body as it gargles and bleeds everywhere and security will descend on you in a big way. Wiping someone's face then bailing is something that the target will shrug off as 'some crazy' until some time later it kills them. This buys you time to get out of the place before anyone realises the full extent…

I would even say it cares that other dissidents notice and understand exactly who did it. Had this been a robbery or some car accident it would not have been as effective. The message is "we are coming after you"

My local butcher in London was killed by Gadaffi for similar reasons it seems http://www.independent.co.uk/news/gaddafi-hit-squad-linked-t...

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#87

Post by winfred »

M_Grey wrote: post #38
L_226 wrote: post #35

I had thought it was going to be a fentanyl or carfentanyl aerosol spray, I suppose that might have rendered him incoherent sooner though. The use of VX seems like bragging really (as if the act wasn't already adolescent enough).

Oh yeah... like using Polonium to kill Litvinenko... this is all about sending a message.

Or obscuring the source. If I wanted to cause a Chinese-North Korea conflict, I'd do it in a way that gives me enough time to tie up loose ends and points in a certain direction.

Same with Litvinenko. We will never find out the true story. Was it a message? Probably. But from who to who? Might have been FSB, but there were plenty of other parties that really didn't like Litvinenko and could have used Russian Polonium either to blame the FSB or to tell the FSB not to fuck with them, because they had the means to blame them for random hits (or a million other possible reasons).

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#88

Post by russdill »

GigabyteCoin wrote: post #58
crdb wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While addressing a spellbound audience of young officers, he would sometimes partially immerse one finger in a small beaker of pure VX for a few seconds. Without interrupting his lecture, he would then amble to a nearby sink and casually wash the deadly chemical from his finger. The teaching point was that VX could not enter the skin instantaneously, and that accidental exposure of a small area would not be harmful…

So all Kim Jong-Nam had to do to survive was walk into a washroom and wipe his face clean with soap and water?

Bleach, you should really use bleach. It breaks it down instead of just mechanically rinsing it away.

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#89

Post by staunch »

M_Grey wrote: post #62
tlow wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. I am merely a curious character who happens to read; occasionally on esoteric matters.

I'm glad to discover that I'm not alone in that, "Hmmm, I wonder if my internet history has put me on all of the lists yet?" reading pattern. On Wikipedia especially, the fun is opening an endlessly nesting series of related topics. Sometimes that can get... weird.

I used to worry about being "on a list" and then realized I wasn't okay with worrying about while considering myself a free person.

Every time I wonder if I might get in trouble for reading, clicking, or watching something I make sure to do it.

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#90

Post by sgift »

kchoudhu wrote: post #83

Is the chemistry of VX well enough known that countries without access to it can recognize it when they see it?

It is. See the various Wikipedia links given here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13720517 - it also contains the chemical structure. That's actually one of the things which makes chemical weapons far more dangerous than nuclear weapons - it is comparatively easy to produce them without much specialized equipment.
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