From another source to provide some colour: > According to a lawsuit filed today in federal court in California, Waymo accuses Anthony Levandowski, an engineer who left Google to found Otto and now serves as a top ranking Uber executive, stole 14,000 highly confidential documents from Google before departing to start his own company. Among the documents were schematics of a circuit board and details about radar and L…
How does Google build such forsenics? Do they have spyware monitoring all their company laptops?
Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets
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Re: Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets
#162This is going to be interesting to watch. Alphabet just: - went nuclear on Uber/Otto - revealed what they track internally to all their employees
Googlers already know this. Like it's not even close to being close to being close to being secret.
Re: Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets
#163I had an interview there where the manager asked me to leave my laptop behind and go for a walk. I was hesitant after hearing stories of Uber conducting electronic espionage against its competitors. They could easily bypass Macbook security with a USB device (I had heard of that on HN too) so I was very nervous to leave my laptop behind and noted its exact orientation and position on the table. Sure enough when I ret…
Thanks for the info. Will know not leave my laptop behind in any interviews.
Re: Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's kind amazing that Google keeps reiterating how their incredible security protects your data, and that even employees are extremely carefully monitored. Yet their confidential trade secrets were taken by a dude who seemingly didn't have access to them as part of his job (since he had to go install the software) and a portable hard drive. The post also says he talked about replicating their technology at a competi…
> is it also possible for Uber to sue the supplier for leaking their confidential data back to Google? My first reaction to the waymo announcement is also on this. "apparently inadvertently" sounds like a blatant lie.
Re: Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets
#165The first thing that caught my attention after reading the whole lawsuit! https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7dzPLynxaXuQjY3dkllZ2ZKb0k... [Item 42- 49] itself is some of the timings regarding Otto's inception and Uber's acquisition.
Timeline:
* Levandowski first registered the domain for his then(now Otto) company on Nov'15
* The suit says on 3rd of Dec'15 he searched for the LIDAR docs and on 11th of Dec'15, he downloaded 14,000 docs from Google's servers.
* Google alleges that on Jan'16, Levandowski told his colleagues that he plans to replicate the Waymo tech at one of Waymo's competitor.
* One of the damning allegation from Waymo is that he met with top execs at Uber at their HQ in SF on Jan 14th 2016.
* Just a day later on 15th he officially formed one of his company(280 Systems, now part of Otto), later on Feb 1st he also registered his other company(Otto Trucking) Feb 1st.
* Strangely after working at Google for about 7 years, he quit Google without a notice(from suit) on Jan 27th.
This is from the interview Bloomberg's did after Uber acquired Otto: 'Kalanick began courting Levandowski this spring, broaching the possibility of an acquisition during a series of 10-mile night walks from the Soma neighborhood where Uber is also headquartered to the Golden Gate Bridge. The two men would leave their offices separately—to avoid being seen by employees, the press, or competitors. They’d grab takeout food, then rendezvous near the city’s Ferry Building. Levandowski says he saw a union as a way to bring the company’s trucks to market faster.'
From the above details, it can imply any of these three things might have happened,
* Scenario 1: He or Uber didn't do anything different from the official story so far.
* Scenario 2: Levandowski went to Uber saying he has custom LIDAR tech but ended up starting his own company the next day and 8 months later Uber just bought them for $680M for the team and tech he alleged stole from Waymo.
* Scenario 3: Levandowski went to Uber in Jan'16, said he has the tech for custom LIDAR, Uber wants it, but there is non-suspicious way for taking the tech directly to Uber since Levandowski alone can't build it. Instead Uber suggests to spin off his own company, hire a team (mostly from Waymo), put together a demo in Nevada desert. This brings in all the press and validity that Otto has the self-driving tech and team. So at this point Otto and Levandowski is a Self-driving tech startup not a LIDAR startup. Now Uber can come in, acquire this hot startup and team, in a market that's worth Trillions. Now Uber is suddenly in the trucking business, gets a huge PR and valuation bump. In this process they also get the LIDAR tech that's build in just 9 months.
What it means is that if the 3rd theory is true, Uber was always buying the LIDAR tech from Levandowski even before he left Waymo. Otto and other components are just a proxy so that it gives them a great story without any suspicions.
To put things into perspective, a single Velodyne HDL-64E LIDAR that almost all self-driving companies use costs around $75,000. Waymo says their equivalent custom alternative costs less than 10% (<$7000). This is a huge cost saving for a tech that is going to go in 100,000+ cars Uber hopes to have in the market in the future. So yea, this can be a bullshit Lawsuit (based on the evidence, less likely) or a well executed corporate espionage!
Re: Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets
#166From another source to provide some colour: > According to a lawsuit filed today in federal court in California, Waymo accuses Anthony Levandowski, an engineer who left Google to found Otto and now serves as a top ranking Uber executive, stole 14,000 highly confidential documents from Google before departing to start his own company. Among the documents were schematics of a circuit board and details about radar and L…
Yea that's incredibly bad if that's what that guy did.. in general for EE designs, the schematic/layouts are not that hard to deduce how you would do it if you are in contact with the company that makes the LIDAR device (the unique and difficult part -- basically just need to ask them, like "yo, how roughly should I interface with this thing and whats your recommendation on a number of the components.. and can you gi…
Fun times, fun times. We got a few people fired, but that was about it.
Re: Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets
#167This is going to be interesting to watch. Alphabet just: - went nuclear on Uber/Otto - revealed what they track internally to all their employees
I think it's reasonable to be suspicious but what they described sounds mostly feasible without extra steps of tracking. What evidence did they present and how could it be tracked? - downloaded 9.7 GB of waymo data -> server logs of what files where accessed and downloaded by what user - searched for special software -> he used google while logged into a work account, so they just looked up that work accounts search…
Actually, I think that would be the easiest as I would assume any external USB devices connected to a computer would automatically send an alert to the security team due to how easily they can infect your computer with malware. I'm not sure my company has something like that but we have posters everywhere telling people to never plug external USB devices into our computers so I would not be suprised.
>What really should be alarming is how easy it is for your employer to get lots of data on you even if they aren't some tech giant.
Right? So much for the Principle of least privilege.
Re: Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets
#168I had an interview there where the manager asked me to leave my laptop behind and go for a walk. I was hesitant after hearing stories of Uber conducting electronic espionage against its competitors. They could easily bypass Macbook security with a USB device (I had heard of that on HN too) so I was very nervous to leave my laptop behind and noted its exact orientation and position on the table. Sure enough when I ret…
Why didn't you just shut it off first? You had FDE turned on, right?
Re: Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets
#169From another source to provide some colour: > According to a lawsuit filed today in federal court in California, Waymo accuses Anthony Levandowski, an engineer who left Google to found Otto and now serves as a top ranking Uber executive, stole 14,000 highly confidential documents from Google before departing to start his own company. Among the documents were schematics of a circuit board and details about radar and L…
And this "over 14,000 highly confidential and proprietary design files for Waymo’s various hardware systems" is what, an engineering repo? (Edit: My money's on repo. It says 'searched for and installed specialized software', I'm translating that as 'installed git.') Or did he just take a copy of his mailbox? Sounds like a rookie move to be downloading this stuff on his work laptop either way.
https://techdocs.altium.com/display/DMAN/Design+Data+Managem...
Edit: much better link than the above: http://www.altium.com/documentation/3.0/display/VAULT/Altium...
Re: Alphabet's Waymo Alleges Uber Stole Self-Driving Secrets
#170Wish I were kidding.