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Bash and Windows Subsystem for Linux Demo [video]

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Re: Bash and Windows Subsystem for Linux Demo [video]

#301

Post by eriknstr »

hermitdev wrote: post #286
Joeri wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have been developing on OS X outside a VM for a while now, and OS X is most definitely not linux. If they can get WSL to be as linuxy as OS X (and arguably it's already close), Windows will be as good a dev platform for linux development as OS X. But they really need to fix notepad so it supports unix style line endings. That part of the demo was a bit embarrassing.

I love watching people developing on OS X, targeting Linux, without proper tests forgetting that Linux's FS's are by default case-sensitive in regards to file names, and completely forgetting that OS-X is case-insensitive, by default (and recommended to remain so, because most OS-X software is not developed with case-sensitive file-system awareness.)

>OS-X is case-insensitive, by default (and recommended to remain so, because most OS-X software is not developed with case-sensitive file-system awareness.)

A few years back, following my previous laptop which had been a flimsy Acer running Ubuntu which became unusable following malfunction of the fan, I was looking for a more sturdy laptop and ended up buying a mid-2012 15" MacBook Pro which came with OS X Mountain Lion I think it was. Being used to case-sensitivity from various Linux distros and on my FreeBSD servers, I decided to enable case-sensitivity for the system drive. That turned out to be quite a mistake indeed. Several pieces of software were unable to find the files they needed, so I ended up reinstalling the whole system shortly after, this time without case-sensitivity.

Following that I had a hardware problem that the Apple authorized repairshops I went to were unable to fix three times in a row so I ended up demanding a refund (Norwegian customer protection laws are good in this regard), and while I still think OS X is an impressive system I lost a bit of my respect for Apple after that experience. (I enjoy my iPod touch though.) Anyway, the reason I mention this is just to say, I don't know if case-sensitivity remains problematic in macOS. I find it highly likely that it still is though.

Re: Bash and Windows Subsystem for Linux Demo [video]

#302

Post by eriknstr »

kazinator wrote: post #282
chrisper wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less overhead and better integrated into the system as a whole. After all a VM is still a separate entity in its own environment. WSL is jumping over the fence and runs Linux stuff in a Windows environment. Think of it the other way. Why would you use wine if you could just run Windows in a VM? :)

Why someone might use Wine is that it's free software. That's about it.

I think the point that parent commenter tried to make is actually that one might use Wine instead of VM because Wine has less overhead.

Re: Bash and Windows Subsystem for Linux Demo [video]

#303

Post by kazinator »

wtetzner wrote: post #299
kazinator wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which drawbacks are those? (One is performance, unfortunately). Rebuilding the code is the norm in the GNU/Linux landscape. Is Ubuntu x86_64 built from Fedora x86_64 packages? Etc. The requirement "I want to run Linux stuff on Windows without rebuilding" is basically stupid, because you normally don't even run stuff from Linux distro A on Linux distro B without rebuilding. It sort of works for programs that have mini…

People like to use package managers to install thing in a Linux distro. Supporting binary compatibility means that they can just use apt instead of building something new, and rely on Canonical for creating packages.

If you're using Ubuntu and relying on Ubuntu packages, that's not "binary compatibility". That's using Ubuntu binaries on Ubuntu. Ok, it's the trivial base case of binary compatibility: A is compatible with A.

Ubuntu users do not pull down Fedora packages, right?

Re: Bash and Windows Subsystem for Linux Demo [video]

#304

Post by wtetzner »

kazinator wrote: post #303
wtetzner wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People like to use package managers to install thing in a Linux distro. Supporting binary compatibility means that they can just use apt instead of building something new, and rely on Canonical for creating packages.

If you're using Ubuntu and relying on Ubuntu packages, that's not "binary compatibility". That's using Ubuntu binaries on Ubuntu. Ok, it's the trivial base case of binary compatibility: A is compatible with A. Ubuntu users do not pull down Fedora packages, right?

I'm talking about Windows supporting binary compatibility with Ubuntu, so the Ubuntu userland can be run on Windows.

Re: Bash and Windows Subsystem for Linux Demo [video]

#305

Post by bitcrazed »

mkl wrote: post #279
bitcrazed wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Access network drives? Via SSH? Sure. Via Samba? Yep: https://www.samba.org/~garming/ If you mean MOUNT network drives, then, not yet, alas. But yes we're keen to build that support when we can.

I think they mean network drives mounted or accessed in Windows. For example, from WSL I can't access files on my network share (in windows it's \\pc-name\\shared, where pc-name is running Samba under Linux). Mapping a drive letter to it doesn't work either - the only thing that shows up in /mnt is c. This is quite a pain.

Yep - that was the mount thing I mentioned in my prev' reply: We've not yet got around to mount support, but it is on our backlog and we're keen to get to it when priorities allow ;)

Re: Bash and Windows Subsystem for Linux Demo [video]

#306

Post by bitcrazed »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #259
jfktrey wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny you mention switching from Windows to MacOS for the command line tools. I booted up a pre-NeXT Mac (an iBook with OS9) the other day, and was blown away to learn that there is no terminal at all! How quickly things changed after that.

Absolutely. My background was that I was Sun for years and on a "workstation" the most common window open for a software developer was an xterm not some IDE. That said, for people who "grew up" knowing nothing but visual studio and delphi, telling them that everything they are trying to do is easily done in the command line doesn't resonate.

Even though I am a huge command-line fan, I am not sure that "everything they are trying to do [in an IDE] is easily done in the command line" is entirely true ;)

While one can do at least as much, if not more, via a variety of command-line tools, the integrated build & debug workflow of a good IDE is invaluable to many. Esp. for those for whom learning a multitude of command-line tools, and syntaxes to drive gdb, profilers, etc. as a little costly/cumbersome.

Re: Bash and Windows Subsystem for Linux Demo [video]

#307

Post by bitcrazed »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #257
Joeri wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have been developing on OS X outside a VM for a while now, and OS X is most definitely not linux. If they can get WSL to be as linuxy as OS X (and arguably it's already close), Windows will be as good a dev platform for linux development as OS X. But they really need to fix notepad so it supports unix style line endings. That part of the demo was a bit embarrassing.

Can't wait to run docker in this. Will save me countless development hours. I was already a fan of colinux back then but this has te potential of being infinitely better.

You can actually manage/control Docker for Windows (upon which you can run Windows & Linux containers) from your Docker client running in Bash (or Windows) on the same box.

Inception ... noitpecnI ;)

Re: Bash and Windows Subsystem for Linux Demo [video]

#308

Post by bitcrazed »

hermitdev wrote: post #288
amorphid wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I can say is that the first two things I tried on the Windows Linux Subsystem didn't work, mainly running Elixir and Debootstrap. It's okay that they aren't (yet?) supported, but something that looks & smells like Ubuntu, yet isn't, doesn't inspire confidence that it can be trusted to act like Ubuntu. An alternative approach would be to call it Winbuntu, Winux, or simply Ubuntu for . Then aggressively maintain a…

I'm not familiar with Elixir or Debootstrap (I'm guessing web-oriented)? But, I've had great success with using WSL for C++ oriented projects, building with both g++ & clang. Only issue in that regard I've had is that the emulated syscalls cannot currently enumerate ethernet devices. The calls are implemented, but fail at runtime currently. I've not yet filed a bug report, because I don't know how it should perform.

You should be able to enumerate network connections on recent Insider builds ... or on Creators Update when it arrives in ... well ... "Soon™" :)

Re: Bash and Windows Subsystem for Linux Demo [video]

#309

Post by bitcrazed »

nailer wrote: post #156
bitcrazed wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi - yes, we register the '.exe' extension with binfmt that then triggers WSL whenever a .exe is launched, allowing us to go find and spawn the requested Win32 process. If you just want to type `code ` (without the .exe), then you can create an alias that resolves to code.exe. Same for Notepad, etc. :)

(HN: bitcrazed is Rich, the person presenting in the video) Hey Rich, can you (or colleagues) tell us any news on console? I get the vibe from Michael Niksa back in August [1] [2] there's a big changes happening that will fix readline-type stuff and I'd love to know more about this - I use ConEmu / Win32 SSH on Windows and it, was well as bash, seem to occasionally suffer from terminal-corrupting weirdnesses. I'd lov…

Yes, we're essentially giving the Windows Console its biggest overhaul in > 30 years!

It's important to remember that the Console was one of the first things Cutler & team implemented when they started NT itself, and it's been updated, patched, partially-enhanced and modified quite a few times in the last 30+ years! ;)

We're in the process of modularizing much of the Console's internals, replacing particularly archaic parts with shiny new modern C++ collections, etc., removing unnecessary cruft, etc. ... while trying not to break anyone!

Much of the work we're doing right now will result in Maximus5 & the Console2 / ConsoleZ / etc. teams having to jump through far fewer hoops to implement decent terminals on Windows.

And while we're doing this, we're also enhancing the console to support *NIX VT sequences, adding 24-bit color, etc., working with several other teams around Microsoft who need Console changes to make their things work.

This week, we are planning & building features for the NEXT OS release!

As you can imagine, it takes considerable effort and care to do this and we've got a great team with Michael, Paul, Mike2 & Austin beavering away as I type.

Actually; small lie - Niksa is on vacation this week re-charging his fuel cells before I chain him to his desk again ;)

We'll be writing a series of blog posts in the coming weeks, summarizing what's new in Bash & Console in Creators Update, and will have some cool stuff to show off at Build 2017!

I'll also be speaking at OSCON 2017 in Austin (same week as Build!!), so stop-by if you're in TX and want to chat about Bash / Console :)

https://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/oscon-tx/public/schedu...

Re: Bash and Windows Subsystem for Linux Demo [video]

#310

Post by bitcrazed »

iamcreasy wrote: post #274
bitcrazed wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you watch the video? ;) Take a look at Visual C++ for Linux: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2016/03/30/visual-c-...

Yes, I did, and it didn't answer my question, but the blog post does. Thanks.

In the video, my demo was to take a POSIX C++ application and deploy it to a local WSL instance, built it, run it and debug it ... from VS.
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