So he encoded some statements about ZFC into these statements about sets of rationals. Wasn't Gödel was able to do better already, encoding statements about ZFC into basic arithmetic/number theory? I guess I just don't understand what the big breakthrough is supposed to be, even though I'm interested in alternate axiom systems (e.g. the whole homotopy type theory / univalent foundations business). Is the idea that he's come up with some new natural statements about symmetries of sets that turn out to demonstrate incompleteness? That would be an innovation, but the above description makes it sounds like it's more about finding symmetry statements that correspond to ZFC.
Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine
11–20 of 88 posts
Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine
#12Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine
#13His recent posts on equivalence theory: http://www.cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2017-February/020299.htm... http://www.cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2017-February/020300.htm... http://www.cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2017-February/020301.htm... They still don't strike me as particularly natural or simple, particularly when compared to my favorite example of incompleteness, the surreal numbers. The surreal numbers are defined via…
Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine
#14There is a lot of ordinary mathematics that is outside of ZFC, which Friedman is well aware of but the writer of this article may not be. Grothendieck was not interested in abstract set theory when he introduced what are now called "Grothendieck Universes". He merely wanted to do algebraic geometry at a high level of abstraction. Similarly, Conway was apparently a bit dismayed when the formalization of his simple ide…
Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine
#15If you want to hear of Friedman in real debate there is great discussion in the foundations of mathematics mailing list archives that are public. There there is real lively yet high-standards scholar figth of first rate experts from all viewpoints. I liked for instance the 'myth of second order logic' theme initiated by S. Simpson. It seems to me that the article is wrong when it says that the spheres recompounded bi…
Can you link to the thread? The archives seem gigantic
Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine
#16His recent posts on equivalence theory: http://www.cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2017-February/020299.htm... http://www.cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2017-February/020300.htm... http://www.cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2017-February/020301.htm... They still don't strike me as particularly natural or simple, particularly when compared to my favorite example of incompleteness, the surreal numbers. The surreal numbers are defined via…
ZF is subject to the incompleteness theorems, it can't prove Con(ZF). Even much simpler systems, like Peano arithmetic, are subject to them.
First-order logic has a lot of nice properties, e.g. "if a result is finitary in the sense that it can be phrased as a first-order statement in Peano Arithmetic, and it can be proven using the axiom of choice (or more precisely in ZFC set theory), then it can also be proven without the axiom of choice (i.e. in ZF set theory)." (c.f. https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2013/12/07/ultraproducts-as-a...)
Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine
#17It's especially interesting given that P vs NP is suspected to be unprovable in ZFC. Waiting for further development!
I'm curious why you say "P vs NP is suspected to be unprovable in ZFC". What would make mathematicians suspect that (if you know)? I mean ZFC is not a toy system, it is obviously used in complex and deep ways to prove or resolve long-standing questions in ways that build on tons of deep results that themselves took tons of research. (By the way for anyone else reading, just so you don't get the wrong idea: ZFC is act…
I'd dispute that mathematicians work with ZFC every day. Most pure but not foundational mathematics basically works with intuitionist set theory. By keeping the size and nesting of sets small enough, we never need to worry about ZFC.
Zorn's lemma comes up occasionally, but that is all.
Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine
#18Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
ZF is subject to the incompleteness theorems, it can't prove Con(ZF). Even much simpler systems, like Peano arithmetic, are subject to them.
It's consistent/complete in first-order logic, because Con(ZF) is a higher-order statement and thus can't even be formulated. First-order logic has a lot of nice properties, e.g. "if a result is finitary in the sense that it can be phrased as a first-order statement in Peano Arithmetic, and it can be proven using the axiom of choice (or more precisely in ZFC set theory), then it can also be proven without the axiom o…
Re: Harvey Friedman bringing incompleteness and infinity out of quarantine
#20> Showing it’s not provable, on the other hand, is more difficult. He did this with a proof by contradiction: He began with the assumption that he could prove his theorem in ZFC, and then constructed from it a system of objects in which ZFC holds. Which means that if his theorem holds true, then ZFC is consistent—and, transitively, that ZFC has proven its own consistency. But by Gödel’s incompleteness theorem, that c…