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Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

recode.net

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Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#321

Post by wwalser »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #49
wwalser wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this argument takes a relatively small set of companies a generalizes their exploits across the larger economy. Isn't it the case that most service companies in the west do not exploit it's labor? The people involved in customizing your car configuration prior to it being delivered to the dealership are not, to my knowledge, exploited. Most laundromats in my area do bag service, those workers don't seem to be…

> Price that a critical mass of consumers are willing to pay Sure, but Instacart is demolishing a very worker-popular tipping feature. That suggests that actually, there is a critical mass of consumers willing to pay more. The question is, why does it matter to Instacart so much that some consumers pay less than what they're willing to pay?

Your comment is 100% assumptions.

> Sure, but Instacart is demolishing a very worker-popular tipping feature. That suggests that actually, there is a critical mass of consumers willing to pay more.

Nothing about this article says that to me. Nothing.

At least one worker has given this information to someone who tweeted the information whose tweet was picked up by recode. We don't know if tipping is "very worker-popular" we know that some workers asked the company to change it back and they half capitulated.

I'm personally a fan of charging higher fees and paying all workers the same living wage. That's effectively what a static service charge does.

> The question is, why does it matter to Instacart so much that some consumers pay less than what they're willing to pay?

We also don't know that. Do you know what the average tip was on instacart before this change? So you know that a 10% static service fee is lower than the average tip before now? Do you know if brown workers were tipped less than white workers? Men more than women, the inverse?

We don't have the information required in order to make the judgements that you've decided to make.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#322

Post by wwalser »

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #119
developer2 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may have missed the part where the service fee is optional and can be removed, or replaced with a tip to the employee. The fact that the fee is optional, instantly makes it not a "fee". Service fees are not a discretionary addon that customers can choose to eliminate.

Yes, you can set it to 0, but they are 100% trying to trick people into not tipping and giving instacart the money. At my neighborhood restaurant they eliminated tips and replaced it with a fixed service fee of 20% they give to the employees. It's common to call such things service fees and to think that goes to the end workers, instead of the corp. It's indefensible to say they didn't mean to trick people into think…

The article doesn't say that the service fee is _not_ given to workers. It may pass through Instacart. It may all go into a common pool paid to workers. Instacart may take a rake. We simply have no idea. Until someone shows some data, everything that you've said is assumptions.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#323

Post by SilasX »

mikeash wrote: post #105
dawnerd wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like even if they paid their delivery people a reasonable wage they'd still expect tips. Ive had movers that made over 50/hour not including the cost of materials/truck/etc ask for a tip. I was all for Uber being tip free until drivers started driving for Lyft which does tips in-app, and now all the drivers expect it. I've always felt this way with Pizza. Most places charge a delivery fee. That itself should b…

The solution is to pay them better and forbid them from taking tips. Make it clear to customers that it's not even allowed, let alone expected. Unfortunately, I don't think tipping culture is going away any time soon.

>The solution is to pay them better and forbid them from taking tips. Make it clear to customers that it's not even allowed, let alone expected.

That's basically what Uber did (except for "you have to refuse once"). They tried to make it a tip-not-required zone and make everyone understand this going in. And yet still, you hear the refrain,

"What, I'm basically a cabbie. Don't you tip cabbies? Shouldn't I be getting tips?"[2] [3]

Even the media coverage comes with that implicit assumption. To paraphrase: "under the ruling, Uber drivers can solicit tips -- you know, like cabbies, duh".[1]

It's like people think that tipping cabbies is some fundamental invariant of reality rather than a default custom that can be overridden by explicit agreement. [2]

My uncle still thinks I'm a bad person because I didn't visibly tip the Lyft driver. "No, it's through the app" 'sure, sure...'.

[1] warning: browser-abusive site even with blockers: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-22/tipping-i...

[2] Characteristic example: https://www.quora.com/Should-you-tip-your-Uber-or-Lyft-drive...

[3] And in fairness, a lot of what drives the attitude is that the pay dropped so low that it effectively only works as a tipped job

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#324

Post by pshposh »

mrits wrote: post #276
pshposh wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the implications for a passenger with a poor star rating?

I've never tipped in hundreds of Uber rides and I have like a 4.9 last I checked. Because I'm not a special snowflake I would think that most people have a good rating. But if you don't and there are options of who you can pick up, you gotta think that someone with a 4.5 would be picked up over a 3.5.

So someone with a 3.5 customer rating will just have to wait longer?

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#325

Post by tptacek »

Chris2048 wrote: post #312
tptacek wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, in fact, market segmentation by price sensitivity is a pretty basic mechanism of applied capitalism, taught to basically everyone who has ever taken a marketing class in business school.

'if you can afford to pay more, you should' is not 'market segmentation'.

No, it very much is. See, for instance, all airline pricing, which is almost shrink-wrapped around the meta-itinerary of a typical business trip. That's not "socialism". It's ruthless capitalism.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#326

Post by RyanZAG »

vinceguidry wrote: post #314
RyanZAG wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Liberalism is good and improves things, and therefore everyone will choose it? Assuming the first part is true, just becomes something is better does not mean it will be chosen, so I don't think that argument works.

Well, no, I'm talking about how things evolve. There's this big myth in history about technological, economic and social decline. That it's been up and down for 2000 years, fits and starts. It's not the case, things slowly and continuously evolve, you just only notice it happening in fits and starts. Also the mind is designed to focus on negative things, so we assign more weight to the negative than we would if we we…

How do you explain the fall of Athens and Rome, and the very long centuries of dark ages in Europe and West Asia?

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#327

Post by vinceguidry »

RyanZAG wrote: post #326
vinceguidry wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no, I'm talking about how things evolve. There's this big myth in history about technological, economic and social decline. That it's been up and down for 2000 years, fits and starts. It's not the case, things slowly and continuously evolve, you just only notice it happening in fits and starts. Also the mind is designed to focus on negative things, so we assign more weight to the negative than we would if we we…

How do you explain the fall of Athens and Rome, and the very long centuries of dark ages in Europe and West Asia?

The dark ages are a myth. This is becoming more accepted amongst historians. It's an artifact of our imaginations, not a valid narrative. Athens and Rome are only two of countless agrarian kingdoms / empires of the day. When Rome fell, the rest of Europe mostly just went on without imperial control. More wars were fought but warfare of the day was exceedingly resource-constrained and not like the total wars we see today. Kingdoms and empires rose and fall all the time, we just focus on those two because their culture survived while the other ones' didn't.

The terminology "dark ages" more refers to the loss of Christian leadership than it does of technological or economic loss. Christians love to frame things apocalyptically and that's what's responsible for the common pejorative view of that time period.

A more valid comparison would be the Napoleanic wars, but there too, you can see that really the wars were only possible because economic advancement allowed nations much more resources to devote to war. Europe had to learn how to civilize warfare three times. Each time happened after massive economic advancements.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#328

Post by TheOneTrueKyle »

harryh wrote: post #317
TheOneTrueKyle wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This mentality is most likely why I usually never tip. There are people out there that honestly think this is normal behavior. Hey your experience was terrible, but have this $5 your don't deserve. I live in the US and only tip when service is good.

You are, for all intents and purposes, stealing from people poorer than you. The default assumption is that customers will tip at least a reasonable amount for all service. If you aren't going to do that you need to announce your intentions in advance. Whenever you go to a restaurant just let the hostess know your plans. That way you won't be deceiving people who are serving you.

You have a unique perspective on this situation. I don't have to do shit. I want food, I get food. Not my fault you create a barrier between me and food.

Regardless, I don't go to restaurants because of this.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#329

Post by TheOneTrueKyle »

harryh wrote: post #317
TheOneTrueKyle wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This mentality is most likely why I usually never tip. There are people out there that honestly think this is normal behavior. Hey your experience was terrible, but have this $5 your don't deserve. I live in the US and only tip when service is good.

You are, for all intents and purposes, stealing from people poorer than you. The default assumption is that customers will tip at least a reasonable amount for all service. If you aren't going to do that you need to announce your intentions in advance. Whenever you go to a restaurant just let the hostess know your plans. That way you won't be deceiving people who are serving you.

Also, if I have to state my intentions, then a server should have to say, "we ask for money because I chose to work for a company that doesn't pay well. Sometimes we deserve it. Most of the time we don't"

Or realize how stupid that sounds

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#330

Post by RyanZAG »

vinceguidry wrote: post #327
RyanZAG wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you explain the fall of Athens and Rome, and the very long centuries of dark ages in Europe and West Asia?

The dark ages are a myth. This is becoming more accepted amongst historians. It's an artifact of our imaginations, not a valid narrative. Athens and Rome are only two of countless agrarian kingdoms / empires of the day. When Rome fell, the rest of Europe mostly just went on without imperial control. More wars were fought but warfare of the day was exceedingly resource-constrained and not like the total wars we see to…

Interesting, but it seems you're coming from the position of having already concluded what the answer is, and then going back and fitting everything to that precondition.
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