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Do Developers Need College Degrees?

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Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#71

Post by bargl »

prions wrote: post #23

I'm someone who graduated with a non-cs engineering degree (and worked professionally as an engineer) whose now in a MSCS program after trying my hand in the job market. Not for a lack of trying, but my experiences definitely relate to an uphill struggle just to get even noticed. And before anyone says "you should do x|y|z", I've done my part pretty well. A few decent sized personal projects, constant studying, meetu…

I think for an out of the gate job this is true. But after you've had your first job this stops being as much of an issue. I have an Aerospace Engineering degree. I was able to get a WebForms job without much experience and a minor in CS. I will never knock that job because they took a chance on me, paid me a semi-competitive salary, and let me learn a lot.

I haven't had a hard time finding something since then. I do hate the basic algorithms questions every interviewer asks, but a month or so of Coursera and I'm ready to answer all of the "Implement a QuickSort algorithm in 20 minutes" questions again.

You either need luck or you need to be willing to take a job that isn't as reputable to learn programming as a profession, once you have that many doors will open up to you.

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#73

Post by leereeves »

Kalium wrote: post #31
alkonaut wrote: post #10

Succeed personally: no. Some dev jobs obviously require a lot of foundational knowledge. I wouldn't want to have a colleague who didn't know linear algebra, simply because that's important in my field. That's not important for making Wordpress sites. I think there are things "every good developer should know" such as knowledge about how cpus work, how OS'es work, how some important algorithms work, some basic set the…

One of the much-downplayed things that degrees are more likely to indicate than personal projects is foundational knowledge. When you work exclusively on Wordpress sites, this is irrelevant. When you work on distributed systems or cryptography, then foundational knowledge gets pretty important. It is completely possible for any person to learn foundational knowledge outside of a formal instructional setting. I person…

> in an ideal manner when entirely self-directed

With all the resources available these days, including MOOCs, textbooks, syllabi, and recorded lectures from the best schools, there's a middle ground between "degree" and "entirely self-directed".

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#74

Post by ekm2 »

alkonaut wrote: post #18
brianwawok wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the diploma is from a prestigeous school but says they failed math 101 four times over that would make me doubt their capacity. I don't think diplomas nor resumes normally list failed classes ;)

It's usually obvious from the ones I see (I don't see diplomas I get transcripts with classes taken, dates they were passed, and grades) The usual sign is someone e.g getting a masters degree 2000-2005, and passing the introductory math classes in 2005.

Your metric will lock me out:I did Real and Complex Analysis sophomore year but was forced to take intro to statistics senior year in order to graduate.

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#75

Post by vvanders »

alkonaut wrote: post #10

Succeed personally: no. Some dev jobs obviously require a lot of foundational knowledge. I wouldn't want to have a colleague who didn't know linear algebra, simply because that's important in my field. That's not important for making Wordpress sites. I think there are things "every good developer should know" such as knowledge about how cpus work, how OS'es work, how some important algorithms work, some basic set the…

> ... I don't see the diploma as evidence of what they know but as evidence that they could learn, quickly.

It's a better evidence that they can follow steps to complete something, but is not a good indicator of the one thing I value in SEs: being self-directed in tackling a problem.

Also this varies a ton by sub-industry, over in games we don't care about degrees at all, just demonstrated work. Once you move on the sliding scale over to the larger corps it starts becoming a checkbox for HR that won't get you through the filter(most of the time).

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#76

Post by Kalium »

leereeves wrote: post #73
Kalium wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the much-downplayed things that degrees are more likely to indicate than personal projects is foundational knowledge. When you work exclusively on Wordpress sites, this is irrelevant. When you work on distributed systems or cryptography, then foundational knowledge gets pretty important. It is completely possible for any person to learn foundational knowledge outside of a formal instructional setting. I person…

> in an ideal manner when entirely self-directed With all the resources available these days, including MOOCs, textbooks, syllabi, and recorded lectures from the best schools, there's a middle ground between "degree" and "entirely self-directed".

You're completely right! Those are all amazing resources.

I would posit that using textbooks, syllabi, recorded lectures from the best schools and greatest professors, and documentation is still a form of self-direction. The learner is left entirely to their own direction, discipline, and environment. Perhaps the only thing that's changed in that list of wonderful resources since the 1960s is MOOCs. I thought of and considered these resources when writing my previous comment.

Perhaps I would have been best-advised to use a turn of phrase such as "self-directed with use of readily available non-instructor instructional resources". I thought such a phrase excessively clunky and unnecessary to make the point, but perhaps I was wrong.

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#77

Post by n0w »

Kalium wrote: post #31
alkonaut wrote: post #10

Succeed personally: no. Some dev jobs obviously require a lot of foundational knowledge. I wouldn't want to have a colleague who didn't know linear algebra, simply because that's important in my field. That's not important for making Wordpress sites. I think there are things "every good developer should know" such as knowledge about how cpus work, how OS'es work, how some important algorithms work, some basic set the…

One of the much-downplayed things that degrees are more likely to indicate than personal projects is foundational knowledge. When you work exclusively on Wordpress sites, this is irrelevant. When you work on distributed systems or cryptography, then foundational knowledge gets pretty important. It is completely possible for any person to learn foundational knowledge outside of a formal instructional setting. I person…

You don't know what you don't know.

This is what struck me about my formal education. While I also believe you can learn anything with enough material and dedication on your own, having the structure to ensure that you cover a set of subjects that constitute "foundational knowledge" can be invaluable.

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#78

Post by TillE »

seoknucklehead wrote: post #56
alkonaut wrote: post #10

Succeed personally: no. Some dev jobs obviously require a lot of foundational knowledge. I wouldn't want to have a colleague who didn't know linear algebra, simply because that's important in my field. That's not important for making Wordpress sites. I think there are things "every good developer should know" such as knowledge about how cpus work, how OS'es work, how some important algorithms work, some basic set the…

With everything that's available in documentation, on YouTube, in forums, and in boot camps and other trainings, doesn't it seem like there are much more efficient ways to get the foundational knowledge that don't require four years of expensive college courses?

All the material exists in one form or another, but I've yet to see anyone put together a credible "DIY CS degree" online resource.

Some day most (certainly not all) aspects of university education will be supplanted by high-quality universally accessible materials. But it's not here yet.

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#79

Post by bluebeard »

prions wrote: post #23

I'm someone who graduated with a non-cs engineering degree (and worked professionally as an engineer) whose now in a MSCS program after trying my hand in the job market. Not for a lack of trying, but my experiences definitely relate to an uphill struggle just to get even noticed. And before anyone says "you should do x|y|z", I've done my part pretty well. A few decent sized personal projects, constant studying, meetu…

I graduated with a degree in operations management. I've probably done over 100 personal projects to gain experience, with maybe 15 being worth talking about. I've read quite a few books, actually a lot if you count the PAKT ones. When I lived in Seattle I went to the meetups and found a couple groups there I enjoyed hanging out with. I've had a really hard time getting interviews except from a couple of small teams, and I mostly feel ignored. At this point I'm taking a computer systems class and discrete structures at a CC. The systems class is helping my debugging skills in ways that I wouldn't have put myself through but the price tag for this knowledge is high, and it's beyond just money. I still learn a magnitude more on my own than directly from the coursework.

Do I think a degree is necessary? No. I do think you'll have a hard time getting a job without one so you might as well start your own company.

These last few years have made me salty.

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