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Encouraging individual sovereignty and a healthy commons

ar.al

91–100 of 102 posts

Re: Encouraging individual sovereignty and a healthy commons

#91
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense, but I think you're swallowing a lot of right-wing lies about what "the left" believes. "The left" is as opposed to the plutocratic tendencies of globalization as it always has been. Believing in freedom of movement, and that immigration does not lead to the downfall of a society, does not mean having to believe in, for instance, corporate sovereignty.

I am quoting Sanders here not some fringe anarchist nobody has heard of. Chomsky also wrote about it. > Believing in freedom of movement, I believe in equality of freedom. So far I haven't seen a lot of poor and disenfranchised being able to move freely. Are you saying Facebook here represents or is a proxy for them and so when it talks about globalization it means anything other than getting more clicks and users wh…

Chomsky and Sanders are very different from the democratic party. The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else, including the American people.

Elections have become an us vs them thing focusing on a few issues that will divide us, but mostly the population are significantly to the left of both parties in the US on actual issues.

If you described something exactly like Obamacare, but called it Trumpcare it would be super popular with GOP voters and maybe hated by democrat voters.

Re: Encouraging individual sovereignty and a healthy commons

#92
post #91
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am quoting Sanders here not some fringe anarchist nobody has heard of. Chomsky also wrote about it. > Believing in freedom of movement, I believe in equality of freedom. So far I haven't seen a lot of poor and disenfranchised being able to move freely. Are you saying Facebook here represents or is a proxy for them and so when it talks about globalization it means anything other than getting more clicks and users wh…

Chomsky and Sanders are very different from the democratic party. The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else, including the American people. Elections have become an us vs them thing focusing on a few issues that will divide us, but mostly the population are significantly to the left of both parties in the US on actual issues. If you described something exactly like Obamacare, bu…

Alright good point. Heck Sanders and Chomsky might be centrists in Europe as well probably.

> The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else,

I think at least in the PR domain they don't shy away from calling themselves "the left". Which I think it is interesting. And the left (if there is one, and that's separate point to talk) hasn't exactly disavowed or pushed against it too much.

> but called it Trumpcare it would be super popular with GOP voters and maybe hated by democrat voters.

The fascinating thing is Trump has picked up "the concern for the workers", NAFTA and TPP as central talking points and ran with it. That was Democrat's bread-and-butter in the past. I am not sure if it was is sincere or pure opportunism (he did pull out of TPP, so that's something...). But I can't deny that it was a good strategy for him.

Even more interesting to me is to see that as soon as he did those things, the new "left" almost immediately reverted to talk about "how TPP is great" and "NAFTA is a good thing" and workers are just idiots brainwashed by fake news and such.

I was watching Reddit's /r/politics and after TPP pull-out and there were posts explicitly saying "we have to support TPP because Trump is against". There is something fascinating there, I think. Remembering the DNC primaries with TPP signs everywhere. And then few months later "what do you mean, we love the TPP".

Re: Encouraging individual sovereignty and a healthy commons

#93
post #91
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am quoting Sanders here not some fringe anarchist nobody has heard of. Chomsky also wrote about it. > Believing in freedom of movement, I believe in equality of freedom. So far I haven't seen a lot of poor and disenfranchised being able to move freely. Are you saying Facebook here represents or is a proxy for them and so when it talks about globalization it means anything other than getting more clicks and users wh…

Chomsky and Sanders are very different from the democratic party. The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else, including the American people. Elections have become an us vs them thing focusing on a few issues that will divide us, but mostly the population are significantly to the left of both parties in the US on actual issues. If you described something exactly like Obamacare, bu…

The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else, including the American people.

I'm assuming you mean big-D Democratic Party. When you say American people, what do you mean? A majority? How much of one? What are you basing this on? Polls? If so, which ones? Something else?

I'm pushing a little because the statement seems to lack nuance, which is something I think we so desperately need in American political discourse.

Re: Encouraging individual sovereignty and a healthy commons

#94
post #93
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chomsky and Sanders are very different from the democratic party. The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else, including the American people. Elections have become an us vs them thing focusing on a few issues that will divide us, but mostly the population are significantly to the left of both parties in the US on actual issues. If you described something exactly like Obamacare, bu…

The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else, including the American people. I'm assuming you mean big-D Democratic Party. When you say American people, what do you mean? A majority? How much of one? What are you basing this on? Polls? If so, which ones? Something else? I'm pushing a little because the statement seems to lack nuance, which is something I think we so desperately nee…

I agree, I am basing it on things I vaguely remember having read and a tiny bit out of my ass. Chomsky uses this a consistent talking point, sorry again no reference, that the polls are consistently to the left of the Democrats.

I wish I could give you a better answer, and will concede my documentation is lacking. I do believe this is true based on my conversations with Democrat and GOP voters when living here. Most people are fairly leftist when it comes to specifics, well except paying taxes.

Re: Encouraging individual sovereignty and a healthy commons

#95
post #92
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chomsky and Sanders are very different from the democratic party. The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else, including the American people. Elections have become an us vs them thing focusing on a few issues that will divide us, but mostly the population are significantly to the left of both parties in the US on actual issues. If you described something exactly like Obamacare, bu…

Alright good point. Heck Sanders and Chomsky might be centrists in Europe as well probably. > The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else, I think at least in the PR domain they don't shy away from calling themselves "the left". Which I think it is interesting. And the left (if there is one, and that's separate point to talk) hasn't exactly disavowed or pushed against it too much.…

Trump is running on "the concern for the voters", but in my humble opinion none of his solutions are going to be good for workers.

There will be less healthcare, less worker protections and less taxes paid by rich people.

The TPP is interesting in that as I understand it was meant to be a big political bargain to fence in China with a lot of concessions give to large cooperations.

Another thing is that free trade in general is good for poor workers somewhere, but unless it comes with some agreement on worker protections they will all be eroded in the long run.

Both left wing and right wing people can find something to like there, it depends on how it is implemented. Kind of like UBI which the far right and the far left in theory agree to, they just use the same name for widely different things.

Re: Encouraging individual sovereignty and a healthy commons

#96
post #94
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else, including the American people. I'm assuming you mean big-D Democratic Party. When you say American people, what do you mean? A majority? How much of one? What are you basing this on? Polls? If so, which ones? Something else? I'm pushing a little because the statement seems to lack nuance, which is something I think we so desperately nee…

I agree, I am basing it on things I vaguely remember having read and a tiny bit out of my ass. Chomsky uses this a consistent talking point, sorry again no reference, that the polls are consistently to the left of the Democrats. I wish I could give you a better answer, and will concede my documentation is lacking. I do believe this is true based on my conversations with Democrat and GOP voters when living here. Most…

A quick Google search shows this repeated talking point by Chomsky: https://www.google.com/search?q=chomsky%20public%20opinion%2...

Re: Encouraging individual sovereignty and a healthy commons

#97
post #94
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else, including the American people. I'm assuming you mean big-D Democratic Party. When you say American people, what do you mean? A majority? How much of one? What are you basing this on? Polls? If so, which ones? Something else? I'm pushing a little because the statement seems to lack nuance, which is something I think we so desperately nee…

I agree, I am basing it on things I vaguely remember having read and a tiny bit out of my ass. Chomsky uses this a consistent talking point, sorry again no reference, that the polls are consistently to the left of the Democrats. I wish I could give you a better answer, and will concede my documentation is lacking. I do believe this is true based on my conversations with Democrat and GOP voters when living here. Most…

Thanks for providing your source. Having lived on both coasts and the Midwest, I've met a lot of people of a variety of political stripes, and wouldn't agree with this unqualified assessment.

Re: Encouraging individual sovereignty and a healthy commons

#98
Im not sure what mark expects his user base to accomplish given that he believes they are "dumb fucks." I know people like mark so i know that he still thinks ordinary people are dumb fucks and that the only reason behind any action he takes is the advancement of his own position in life and business.

Re: Encouraging individual sovereignty and a healthy commons

#99
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.8 billion DAU's. They must be getting something out of it. You're definitely in the minority (even on HN, but I'm sure there are a sizeable number of people here not using it). I think every B2B scenario would expect tel/email. I have never encountered any that asked me to interact over Facebook and I'd be shocked if they did. Is it possible your view of Facebook is skewed by not using it in the last 8 years? A lot…

Is there any independent verification of 1.8b DAUs? How could one go about assessing that?

Not that I know of but as a public company I doubt they could lie about that number without the potential for serious consequences.

Re: Encouraging individual sovereignty and a healthy commons

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about the poor Mexican farmer who couldn't make a profit because NAFTA stripped away tariffs of import and he now has little chance except to pay a smuggler to take him up north so he can wash toilets or pick cotton away from his family. Is he the future of the left. That's what welfare and unions are for. Free trade deals are, overall, better for everybody. The solution is education and retraining, not protec…

I'm having a difficult time squaring your comments here in this line with your comment elsewhere on the thread about Taleb's ideas of anti-fragility and complex systems. Are you making a normative argument about how these "well designed, functional governments" should behave? Because if you are I'm having a hard time parsing how these governments behaving this way would be sufficiently different from how we got here…

> Again, apologies if I sound obtuse.

You're not, I was thinking of how to reconcile the two comments while writing the second one actually. I see globalization as driven by a) inevitable and b) irreversible trends. Like increasing ease of movement, ease of communication, ease of money transfer (Bitcoin). That doesn't exclude decentralization.

For your first point:

"Decentralization" doesn't necessarily entail every country breaking up into a billion tiny Singapores. It just means decisions being made locally, from the bottom up. In the US, it could look like increased states rights. Want to try libertarianism? Want more refugees? Legal drugs? Go ahead. There wouldn't be half the hysteria if willing states could just opt out of welcoming refugees. They'd keep them out, but that would be that, and there wouldn't be much fuss beyond that. The attitude on the right just would be: "glad we avoided that, why go through the trouble?", instead of moral outrage and self-preservation instincts. In complex governmental systems, you inevitably have coercion, which leads to instability.

Someone in the Northern UK might not meet many immigrants, but he doesn't like the idea of someone from migrant-heavy London voting to bring migrants into his little town, if he views it as a threat. It breeds resentment. Democracies, especially complex ones, have to compromise between millions of voters that each want different things. The more people that want different things from official government policy, the more unrest. If you're in a political minority, there's functionally no difference between a government being democratically elected by a majority that is nothing like you, and an authoritarian regime that's accountable to nobody. In both cases, you're (effectively) not represented (how many Clinton supporters feel represented by Trump?). The larger the scale, the more disparate the population, the more important it is to favor local power structures over national ones.

You know the argument that goes "democracy is just war by another name", and is a very nice thing because it allows for "bloodless revolutions"? That's not the case if the country is too complex (population too disparate) and the government represents only 30% of the country rather than 80% (pretty sure only a quarter of the country voted for Trump, the earlier figure is a reference to that, everyone else probably dislikes him to some extent; and in a functional, ideal country, you may not have voted for the current government, but still don't mind them too much, that's what the 80% refers to).

Not sure you mean by "how we got here". Low growth and economic uncertainty seem necessary for populism. In the EU, the euro is the main cause of that (not an optimal currency area, preventing there from being true freedom of movement for labor, as well as messing up the exchange rates and screwing any country that isn't Germany). I'm very pro-EU (and live there) but there's little doubt in my mind that the euro is responsible for much of the rise in populism here, and it's the quintessential example of something done for small incremental efficiency gains while disregarding the systemic aspects. The Greece situation is already worse than the US Great Depression, and resembles the one between creditors and Germany before WW2. It isn't that bad yet, but the only reason is that they had the euro, so inflation and capital flight couldn't destroy the value of their currency. Yet, in all of history, every multinational currency has eventually collapsed. Greece may not have the euro forever. The current debt loads aren't the only problem: if any country leaves, the destruction of wealth caused by inability to settle TARGET-2 balances might cause a cataclysm. In other words, we increased systemic complexity, and vastly increased systemic risk.

For your second point: you can coordinate to solve global problems, without increasing systemic complexity and risk. In a more decentralized world, you'd have more direct governments, and so populations that really care about "green" would just vote straight for that, and those that don't would eventually have enough smog that they would vote straight for it, too. Right now you have 50+% of the US population that wish US climate policy was more progressive but has exactly 0% of power over those policies. Wouldn't decentralization be better on the whole?

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