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Why I Don’t Talk to Google Recruiters

yegor256.com

211–220 of 674 posts

Re: Why I Don’t Talk to Google Recruiters

#211
Regarding his canned response:

> Thanks for your email. I'm very interested indeed. I have nothing against an interview. However, there is one condition: I have to be interviewed by the person I will be working for. By my future direct manager.

This kinda misses the point. I can't speak for any companies besides Google, and this is all my personal sense and not the company line, but anyway: speaking with a hiring manager who wants you is actually less useful than speaking to a disinterested stranger. Hiring at Google is done by committee and actually regards feedback from a hiring manager with some suspicion. Here's why:

Google allows for a lot of mobility. Internal transfers are common, projects are scaling up all the time, sometimes new engineers don't gel with their teams and want out, and we strongly prefer to keep people within the company when projects scale down. Given this, hiring an employee solely on the basis of an enthusiastic manager's word is a recipe for lowering the overall level of engineering. Even if Yegor had the strong support of a manager who wanted him, he'd still have to go through the same raft of interviews and be judged by the same hiring committee.

Alright, fine, I hear you say, but if a manager likes you, surely that's still a positive signal? Well, in the best case scenario, sure: you're talented, the manager is wise enough to spot a good engineer when they see one, and they express their assessment honestly. But the best case scenario involves the manager acting as though they were a disinterested outside, so why not get the opinion of an actual disinterested outsider? However, what if the manager is short-staffed and just needs whatever help he can get to meet their goals? What if the endorsement is made on some biased basis, such as going to the same school or assessment of talent in an area unrelated to engineering?

For all their warts, whiteboard-based interviews are the state of the art in assessing the capabilities of a large number of candidates within reasonable time and cost. They're not foolproof, and smaller companies can afford to (and should) use more bespoke methods. However, at the scale of Google and friends, they're unfortunately the best thing available. But I won't lecture hacker news on scale. We all know expectations have to be adjusted as systems grow.

Re: Why I Don’t Talk to Google Recruiters

#212

There is no point in giving me binary-tree-traversing questions; I don't know those answers and will never be interested in learning them. Let's presume this is out of preference and not ability. It's a pretty basic concept. If your preference stops you from learning something as basic as this as a programmer, then it doesn't seem likely that you will be motivated to keep up with even more abstruse concepts. Nearly e…

I think you're misquoting the article, and the "Dunning-Kruger" is uncalled for. Here's the full quote: > If she would have started her email with "We're looking for an algorithm expert," we would never have gotten any further and would not have wasted our time. Clearly, I'm not an expert in algorithms. There is no point in giving me binary-tree-traversing questions; I don't know those answers and will never be inter…

> We should avoid the notion that naive string concatenation is a problem that impedes our ability to deliver software, except for niche applications, this is not the case.

The attitude that really basic Computer Science concepts like algorithms and algorithmic complexity are irrelevant is exactly why software projects are so frequently FUBAR.

The Dunning-Kruger reference is spot on. The original author doesn't even know what they don't know, or why they should want to learn it. Being proud of ignorance of a cornerstone topic isn't something to be celebrated.

Re: Why I Don’t Talk to Google Recruiters

#213
As a hiring manager at Amazon, I'm super excited to talk to candidates. A new job is, after all, an incredibly important life decision on the same level as getting married or buying a house. And as a manager, making sure I hire the right people to build the kind of diverse, respectful, collaborative, representative, professional, mentoring, balanced and focused team that I can is the most important thing I can do on a daily basis.

In fact, I spend a non-trivial amount of my day personally looking for, and reaching out to, prospective candidates, with no recruiter involved.

With that in mind, Amazon recruits so widely that I couldn't possibly talk to every prospect; there just aren't enough hours in the day. So I think it's important to have recruiters doing the basic screens, and am delighted to take over from there.

Anyone who wants a job at one of the big companies should understand that there's going to be some bureaucracy on the intake side just because the volume is unbelievable. If you feel like you've had a bad experience with Amazon in particular, please reach out and let me know and I'll see if there's anything I can do about it.

Re: Why I Don’t Talk to Google Recruiters

#214
post #182

I've been working as a software engineer for quite a few years now and I'm sure I'm a much better software engineer now then when I graduated. I now have years of solving varying real life problems with real-life constraints (budgets, deadlines, ...) using a big amount of different technologies, working with a lot of different people, ... However, I'm also pretty sure I'd have a better chance on the Google interview…

> However, I'm also pretty sure I'd have more chance on the Google interview right after graduation then now, when all the theoretical stuff was fresh in my brain. So I'd have more chance while being a (in my opinion) less useful engineer. The thing to understand is that Google is more interested in not hiring potential bad hires than in hiring every good hire. Part of the reason the interview process works the way i…

>Part of the reason the interview process works the way it does is to filter for people willing to put in some effort

That's the sales pitch, but it's actually just because there is no other interview approach that works at scale for the volume of candidates they get. If they didn't have a stack of 100,000 resumes, they would throw this ridiculous process out the window in a heartbeat and actually interview people for the position.

Re: Why I Don’t Talk to Google Recruiters

#215

There is no point in giving me binary-tree-traversing questions; I don't know those answers and will never be interested in learning them. Let's presume this is out of preference and not ability. It's a pretty basic concept. If your preference stops you from learning something as basic as this as a programmer, then it doesn't seem likely that you will be motivated to keep up with even more abstruse concepts. Nearly e…

It is a basic question about one very narrow skill set that is relevant for some, but not all, programming jobs. It is trivial only for people who had to slog through only-sort-of-relevant CS degrees, who may or may not be the most productive programmers. I could just as easily say "we should be asking every programmer to handle a six-box grid layout" on a white board. It is just as trivial, it is relevant to the same percentage of programmers, but if that were the intro criteria I would probably have a problem hiring people to do the algorithms work.

Re: Why I Don’t Talk to Google Recruiters

#216
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

figuring out a cool algorithm is not the same as learning 1000 algorithms by rote to prepare for an interview. Just because doesn't feel like doing test prep for an interview, it doesn't mean they don't have the brain capacity to actually solve the business problem when it comes up. If in my day-to-day I need to use an AVL tree, I will get a library for it, I won't be reimplementing it from scratch every single time.

You don't have to memorize 1000 algorithms. Honestly you could have a really good understanding of when and how to use about 10 algorithms and probably do very well on most interviews.

The problem is each company will ask you a different set of algorithms, and you're not sure which they'll ask, so you effectively have to memorize a LOT more than 10 if you want to be prepared for whatever they throw at you (not literally 1000, but maybe 40 or 50, which will take considerable time to prepare for, in addition to all the other preparation or unrelated questions they could end up asking you (architecture, OS, process, design patterns, optimization, advanced language-specific quirks and gotchas, terminology, 3D math and graphics (if games), databases, networking, behavior questions, solving math problems you've never encountered before, questions about your past projects, etc, etc, etc).

When they passed on me after my Google interview, the HR person actually told me "You can try again in 18 months. There are quite a few people who study for it during those 18 months and get it the next time!"

Yeah, I don't want to study for 18 months to get a job at Google, sorry.

Re: Why I Don’t Talk to Google Recruiters

#217
post #182

I've been working as a software engineer for quite a few years now and I'm sure I'm a much better software engineer now then when I graduated. I now have years of solving varying real life problems with real-life constraints (budgets, deadlines, ...) using a big amount of different technologies, working with a lot of different people, ... However, I'm also pretty sure I'd have a better chance on the Google interview…

> However, I'm also pretty sure I'd have more chance on the Google interview right after graduation then now, when all the theoretical stuff was fresh in my brain. So I'd have more chance while being a (in my opinion) less useful engineer. The thing to understand is that Google is more interested in not hiring potential bad hires than in hiring every good hire. Part of the reason the interview process works the way i…

"it's not a big deal to spend 3-5 hours a week for a few months"

I think I can get further ahead than a job at Google for that kind of time investment. I don't mind big expenses, I just expect corresponding rewards.

Re: Why I Don’t Talk to Google Recruiters

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why not just lie to them and tell them you make 20-30% more than you really do ?

Habit mostly I guess. I always implicitly assume lying has the risk of getting caught and then becoming known as liar. I don't evaluate on a case by case basis whether I should lie. Also the experience of being caught lying is emotionally and mentally draining for me so I stopped way way back. Like in childhood. I wouldn't say I'm completely fib free, but if you are even remotely entitled to the truth your going to g…

>but if you are even remotely entitled to the truth your going to get it

This is a negotiation, they aren't entitled to know how much you make nor do they have a good method of checking up on it.

Re: Why I Don’t Talk to Google Recruiters

#220

> There is no point in giving me binary-tree-traversing questions; I don't know those answers and will never be interested in learning them. Interview process: complete success.

Also, seems to be some personality problems (although I of course don't know the guy). No need to go as far as binary trees.
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