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Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

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Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#961

Post by watwut »

tnones wrote: post #955
rleigh wrote: post #928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been a few high profile incidences of fairly bad things happening over the last year; see the code of conduct introduced at some conferences after some of them. Some people just don't know how to behave appropriately, sad to say. This story being a poster child for how not to behave, and how not to handle the situation properly if you're in HR. And regarding the last paragraph, I'm not talking about anythi…

The codes of conduct are unfortunately sanctimonious non-sense to beat people over the head with. Those who champion them never apply the rules to themselves, and those who really want to harass pay them no heed. This was already the case with Adria Richards and her dongle joke offense, where she harassed a guy by putting his photo on Twitter and cost him his job, and got lauded for it by gender activists and news ar…

I don't think tech is more meritocratic then other jobs. Various signalings and posturings and confidencw often count so much more then merit. We don't even know how to define merit and never ever talk about what merit is.

Also, if she reported you to hr, then you should consider it hint clearest possible. We are not even talking about subtle misunderstandings here, he invited new employee to have sex.

Stop blaming douchebaghery on geekiness or nerdiness, most geeks are not like that.

Also, there is little direct about male keeping business info away from competitor or retroactively lowering her review scores to keep her. The politics there was ugly as fuck and had zero to do with merit.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#962

Post by vkou »

trjordan wrote: post #877
rosser wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HR within companies has never done anything for me when I approached them.... The thing you need to keep in mind about HR is this: they aren't there to help you, to have your back. They're there to protect the company from you . Incidental to that, they've traditionally managed the benefits the company is either required or chooses to give you, and acts as a place for you to take concerns such as sexual harassment.…

This is true, but I think you've overstating HR's loyalty to other individuals in the company. When an employees places a complaint against another employee, neither of those parties is "the company", even when one is in management. If the subject of the complaint is breaking laws, HR (who has the company's back) is rightfully incentivized to show that person the door. That person is a liability, and the company will…

> When an employees places a complaint against another employee, neither of those parties is "the company", even when one is in management. If the subject of the complaint is breaking laws, HR (who has the company's back) is rightfully incentivized to show that person the door.

Which is exactly what happens... When the harasser is not a 'Top performer' in a culture that claims to reward meritocracy.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#963

Post by crestedtazo »

mightykan wrote: post #771
xor1 wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing a huge part of the problem here. People with power are the ones who need to be "taught" (punished). This behavior can only occur repeatedly when someone can get away with it, because they have power. If they don't have power, they are punished (often harshly), and a rational person will not repeat that behavior. Your blanket approach is completely ridiculous. You act like the problem is that men aren't…

I have zero power now but have the potential to have it. If I don't know how to behave like a decent human around my female coworkers and peers right now, I would have no idea how to do this when I have more power (e.g. become a manager). But, then, I'd have the power to cause irreparable emotional and societal damage. If I don't know how to act like a rational reasonable human being who respects others no matter the…

> I'm so tired of this "not all men" attitude.

Do you believe that all men are incapable of being decent human beings?

Can I ask why you believe that?

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#964

Post by facepalm »

tnones wrote: post #955
rleigh wrote: post #928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been a few high profile incidences of fairly bad things happening over the last year; see the code of conduct introduced at some conferences after some of them. Some people just don't know how to behave appropriately, sad to say. This story being a poster child for how not to behave, and how not to handle the situation properly if you're in HR. And regarding the last paragraph, I'm not talking about anythi…

The codes of conduct are unfortunately sanctimonious non-sense to beat people over the head with. Those who champion them never apply the rules to themselves, and those who really want to harass pay them no heed. This was already the case with Adria Richards and her dongle joke offense, where she harassed a guy by putting his photo on Twitter and cost him his job, and got lauded for it by gender activists and news ar…

The code of conduct also implies (male) visitors of conferences are rapists unless told otherwise. I personally find it very off putting if a conference of meetup has such a code of conduct. Not because I want to rape or harass (I don't), but because it is insulting.

I think if you organize an event, you should be allowed to assume your target group are good people. For people who nevertheless step over the line, the normal standards of decency apply and they can be dealt with, CoC or no.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#965

Post by mankash666 »

Why doesn't she sue Uber. By law, emails under litigation are required to be retained, so the evidence must exist.

As a guy, I've faced a different type of harassment, but have made it a point to maintain a clear electronic trail within and outside the company in case the company retaliate if and when I complain

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#966

Post by visakanv »

facepalm wrote: post #821
kevinburke wrote: post #820

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My "data" is every woman I know in tech sharing this story with a comment like, "A version of this happened to me" or "I know so many people who have had this happen to them." Also multiple stories of women reporting harassment and being forced out of companies, as well as multiple women I know signing NDA's as a condition of receiving severance pay to avoid discussing a company's poor treatment or management of hara…

Then don't write "I guess it is common", state the number of women who told you such things. Personally I haven't heard many such stories from women in tech. Also differentiate between some colleague being interested in them and boss proposing sex on first day.

> Personally I haven't heard many such stories from women in tech.

Women learn from a very young age to be very selective about who they trust, in a much more nuanced way than men do.

If you haven't heard such stories from women, it's quite probably because they're not comfortable telling you such things.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#967

Post by visakanv »

tptacek wrote: post #870
shoover wrote: post #855

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is good to see the support here. I am unpleasantly surprised at the comments admonishing her for not lawyering up, though. She bothered to write publicly, which is more than anyone outside the situation could rightly ask. She wrote very well on painful, personal events and I think can be proud of how she handled it. It opens the door for others, and Uber management is going to have to deal with it one way or anoth…

I give stuff like that a pass. We're the "well, actually" capital of the Internet (or at least one of the "well, actually" major metros). I think we all just want to be able to participate in the discussion and are not very tactful about crowbarring our way into it. I don't feel like I read a lot admonishment (which would take forms like "by not suing you're complicit in harm to other women" or "if your story was rea…

> "if your story was really credible it would involve a lawyer"

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. "Aha, she's got a lawyer! She's making up this nonsense to try and get a fat cash payout from Uber!"

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#968

Post by watwut »

mightykan wrote: post #771
xor1 wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing a huge part of the problem here. People with power are the ones who need to be "taught" (punished). This behavior can only occur repeatedly when someone can get away with it, because they have power. If they don't have power, they are punished (often harshly), and a rational person will not repeat that behavior. Your blanket approach is completely ridiculous. You act like the problem is that men aren't…

I have zero power now but have the potential to have it. If I don't know how to behave like a decent human around my female coworkers and peers right now, I would have no idea how to do this when I have more power (e.g. become a manager). But, then, I'd have the power to cause irreparable emotional and societal damage. If I don't know how to act like a rational reasonable human being who respects others no matter the…

You assume that abuse of power is male only thing. It is not, it is general people thing. The problem is not that men don't know what is right, these know full well what they are doing. Problem is that this behavior is tolerated while women rudely telling that guy off while they are both young is likely to have team turn against her.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#969

Post by watwut »

mightykan wrote: post #771
xor1 wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing a huge part of the problem here. People with power are the ones who need to be "taught" (punished). This behavior can only occur repeatedly when someone can get away with it, because they have power. If they don't have power, they are punished (often harshly), and a rational person will not repeat that behavior. Your blanket approach is completely ridiculous. You act like the problem is that men aren't…

I have zero power now but have the potential to have it. If I don't know how to behave like a decent human around my female coworkers and peers right now, I would have no idea how to do this when I have more power (e.g. become a manager). But, then, I'd have the power to cause irreparable emotional and societal damage. If I don't know how to act like a rational reasonable human being who respects others no matter the…

You assume that abuse of power is male only thing. It is not, it is general people thing. The problem is not that men don't know what is right, these know full well what they are doing. Problem is that this behavior is tolerated while women rudely telling that guy off while they are both young is likely to have team turn against her.
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