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Starting an Internet Service Provider

chrishacken.com

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Re: Starting an Internet Service Provider

#141

Post by jlgaddis »

madsushi wrote: post #123
jlgaddis wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that? Level3 is one of my upstreams and I've had two /23s from them for a few years. I'm pretty sure they still have some addresses available, although they might be harder to get nowadays.

You can get provider-aggretable (PA) IP addresses from your ISP, but they can only be used with that ISP. You can also get provider-independent (PI) addresses, which you can use and move between ISPs with BGP. If they're using Zayo and Level 3 at the same time, you would need PI-IPs that you can move to the other ISP when one ISP is down. Or, another option is that they're doing CGNAT on all of their client traffic.

> You can get provider-aggretable (PA) IP addresses from your ISP, but they can only be used with that ISP.

Sorry, this is incorrect -- I'm a network engineer and I've been doing exactly this for years. I advertise "Level3 IPs" to other ISPs/peers, I advertise "non-Level3 IPs" to Level3, hell, I even "re-advertise" some of my customers' PI addresses (that they advertise to me) up to Level3.

Actually, I can advertise any prefixes I want via Level3 -- even yours (assuming you had your own).

n.b.: Now, some ISPs may require an LOA (or similar) before they'll accept certain prefixes from you but that's a (easily solved) procedural issue -- not a technical issue.

Re: Starting an Internet Service Provider

#142

Post by falsedan »

jon-wood wrote: post #21
falsedan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's thanks to the BT/OpenReach split in the 90s forcing small ISPs to compete on service & cost (because they all have the same guaranteed cost to access the infrastructure). Plus y'know you can blow fibre to 90% of the population in a reasonable amount of time.

Except it's not - for 200/20 at those prices the GP must be talking about a Virgin Media line, and they run their own cables. The increased competition between providers probably contributes to driving down prices to just above the point of profitability, but its not responsible for the infrastructure in this case.

I think the common base-level infrastructure helped drive ISPs to compete on service & feature + meant they can use their funds to implement those features.

Re: Starting an Internet Service Provider

#143

Post by rootsudo »

doubleplusgood wrote: post #63
ndespres wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the type of person who can lose hours reading stories on sites like Jargon File, Folklore.org, Raymond Chen's blog about MS internals, and even more modern internet history stories. And as I wouldn't limit my search on areas to get involved in muni ISPs to my own country, a global perspective would be interesting to read.

Seconded. I spent a lot of time in my teenage years just reading plaintext HOWTOs and RFCs (metered dialup sucks).

Thirded.

It's fun, and educational. It empowers the ADHD in me.

Re: Starting an Internet Service Provider

#144

Post by rootsudo »

martinald wrote: post #38
chrishacken wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that the bandwidth is expensive; it's the cost to deploy everything. If there was preexisting conduit/fiber in the ground and all we had to do was plug two cables together, I'd be able to charge $25/m too. I've never been to the UK, but I believe your population density is a lot higher than that of the US; which is where all of our costs originate (interconnecting the customer to our network).

I don't think that's the reason really. The main reason I can see is that Comcast (or cable internet) has no real competition. I don't understand why that is. AT&T, Verizon etc seem to have given up on competing. Verizon stopped their rollout of FTTH a while back nearly entirely, though it has restarted very slowly. AT&Ts VDSL based UVerse solution is way too sparse, with very long cable runs. Compare this to BT in t…

Verizon stopped competing because they are transitioning from a wired and wireless company to solely wireless. They have no interest in holding onto their old POTS, and FCC required them to service it.

Cost of the Telcom union, employers and pension adds up, not to mention infrastructure.

They avoid all this by wireless voice, cellular communications.

Still under the FCC though.

Re: Starting an Internet Service Provider

#145

Post by wolf550e »

chrishacken wrote: post #130
wolf550e wrote: post #128

> I was starting an ISP, perhaps the most capital intense business on the planet Semiconductor manufacturing is literally a million times more expensive (~3B investment in a new fab). The sentence I'm quoting doesn't appear to be intended as a joke.

"perhaps" intended to mean, among the top* But that's still debatable depending on what level of scale you're talking. Deploying fiber throughout the entire United States, to every single household, would be near or exceed $1 Trillion. We have semiconductors in likely 99.99% of households now; at what cost? (I don't know, but I'd assume it's probably close.)

In semiconductors, you need to invest billions before you make and sell your first chip. With fiber, you can start with a dozen customers. There is no comparison.

Re: Starting an Internet Service Provider

#146

Post by hooloovoo_zoo »

shambolic wrote: post #136
hooloovoo_zoo wrote: post #121

I've been wondering lately if it's possible to have an Uber-style fiber service where people sign up to serve as nodes and then users pay a nearby node to connect. This would skirt what seems to be the major roadblock to installing fiber -- city regulations -- by having too many people running improvised fiber lines to enforce the rules. Is this just not possible?

No, it is not possible. Unless you plan to do this purely on private property, you are going to have to negotiate and pay for access to public right of way. Also, even if you only did this on private property and did not cross any roads or other public spaces, you'd be SOL if your neighbor wasn't a node and they didn't feel like giving you permission to cross their property.

Interesting points, but I just wonder if there is sufficient will to stop large numbers of determined "drivers" from ignoring the rules. Uber drivers could be said to be violating rules, but Uber is still successful.

Re: Starting an Internet Service Provider

#147

Post by jlgaddis »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #119
jlgaddis wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hadn't planned on going myself (I prefer the one in Vegas!) but there will certainly be plenty of ISP folks there for you to chat with.

I mean, can just anyone go there? And is it free cuz Im kind of broke?

You don't have to be a member of WISPA to attend, AFAIK. It is not free, however; cf. http://www.wispa.org/Events/WISPAmerica

Re: Starting an Internet Service Provider

#148

Post by [deleted] »

trafficlight wrote: post #35
poorman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It says ura_limit_reached. I'm guessing you don't have enough paid accounts.

I'll look into it. We should have an unlimited account. Edit: it appears there is a 5 guest limit per paid account. Edit 2: I think I'm going to set up a Mattermost server and push people that way.

[deleted]

Re: Starting an Internet Service Provider

#149

Post by benmorris »

I'm fascinated by the economics of running fiber. A neighboring company from a few counties away has brought in a fiber backbone into the county. This was run via aerial fiber, they were pretty clear their objective was to hook up schools, government and businesses once in the county. After that then focus on residential. Our county is pretty rural, the largest town 5k people. The backbone ran past my parents house which is very rural farming area. I kept telling them they wouldn't be able to get internet by tapping into a point to point run. Apparently I was wrong the company sold them 100mb down for $80/m with a $700 install fee. They are tapping thier backbone at each house and coming off of the tap with a smaller fiber directly into the house.

My condolences running a wisp as well. I know some of the guys at our local wisp, they sell a lot of subscriptions but they really don't have the capacity to keep selling service. Really poor quality connections along with things the OP mentioned like interference and equipment issues.

Re: Starting an Internet Service Provider

#150

Post by jlgaddis »

benmorris wrote: post #149

I'm fascinated by the economics of running fiber. A neighboring company from a few counties away has brought in a fiber backbone into the county. This was run via aerial fiber, they were pretty clear their objective was to hook up schools, government and businesses once in the county. After that then focus on residential. Our county is pretty rural, the largest town 5k people. The backbone ran past my parents house w…

Heh, is it weird that I read your comment, it sounded familiar, and I'm 99% certain I know exactly who the companies you're referring to are?
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