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Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

nytimes.com

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Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#251

Post by mistercow »

rodgerd wrote: post #175
mistercow wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sooner or later, the truth is going to come out. Fowler knows this. There's no room for ambiguity here: either Uber has broken the law extravagantly , or she's lying. If the latter is true, she will be crucified for it. The defamation suit alone would be monumental. And again, there's no ambiguity. She says she has extensive records of this behavior. That's not something she can really walk back. In a situation where…

> she will be crucified for it. She'll be crucified for saying bad things about a man in tech regardless. As we can see from the recently created accounts revving up the accusations of lying to promote her book.

Eh, I think that's a little too reductive. She's getting berated for pattern-matching to the "feminist" outgroup, which is a favorite bogieman for a lot of men in the industry. And given Uber's previous flirtations with "digging up dirt on hostile journalists", I wouldn't put some malicious extralegal bullshit past them either.

But I do want to distinguish that from the crucifixion she'd receive if she were making it up. There's a difference between people being shitty online, and your professional reputation being destroyed. The former will happen regardless. The latter is less likely if she's telling the truth.

But fair point that even if she's being truthful, she's put herself at a lot of risk.

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#252

Post by mistercow »

muglug wrote: post #125
camdenlock wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's trendy right now to "listen and believe." Outrage can score you some serious Internet popularity points, particularly when your claims are about men being sexist pigs. Don't ask for any evidence, just grab the pitchforks! That being said, it's tempting to just believe everything Fowler wrote and hope for sweet justice. We all love a good story, after all. Unfortunately, what makes for a gripping story of justice…

She's staked her reputation (and, at this point, probably her career as well) on not lying about the harassment. She says she has both documentary evidence and other female Uber employees to back up her claims. "Guilty until proven innocent" is how our courts work, and rightly so. But, as a layperson, there's nothing wrong in assessing the evidence and saying: "the chance these claims are false is vanishingly small,…

Don't forget Uber's response. They threw the CEO's competence under the bus to buy themselves some slack.

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#253

Post by onion2k »

aisofteng wrote: post #60

> If they will discipline and fire people and put processes in place to keep the problem fixed You're assuming that that allegations are true. They have been neither proven nor corroborated, and the author advertises her book in her post. Edit: This comment has gone strongly negative in the matter of minutes. I offered no opinion and only stated fact; either there is vote manipulation on HN, or at least some portion…

You're assuming that that allegations are true.

You can read all of the comments about a story like this one with a caveat of "If the allegations are true...". I don't think it's necessary to make that explicit. It's obvious.

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#254

Post by tomlock »

benchaney wrote: post #243
tomlock wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You thought I was criticizing the content of his post? Incorrect.

"Understood. You should get your lady friends in tech to read the comments you posted on a throwaway. Do you think they'll feel safer around you?" Are you seriously going to argue this isn't a criticism?

No? Why would I argue that? It is a criticism. Just not of the content.

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#255

Post by chimeracoder »

frobozz wrote: post #219
xiphias wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure..the thing I don't understand is why she didn't go to a lawyer? That would have been the next logical step for me. At least 1 person should get to prison if there is enough evidence collected by multiple women.

A union representative is the next logical step. They will be able to represent you anonymously at first, and bring a collective action against the perpetrator if there have been multiple incidents against multiple victims. If you wish to take it to court yourself, then they may also be able to provide you with or help you find an appropriate lawyer for the case.

> A union representative is the next logical step.

Unions can have benefits sometimes, but handling issues related to harassment is not one.

> They will be able to represent you anonymously at first, and bring a collective action against the perpetrator if there have been multiple incidents against multiple victims.

Or, if the perpetrator is a peer but holds a position of power within the union, they may simply decide to ignore you, as HR did in this case.

If you speak out against the union rep's decision (such as by writing a blog post like this), and the union's charter has a clause prohibiting public opposition to the union (which is legal and very common), then you could get your membership terminated. This not only means you lose your current job, but you could effectively get blacklisted across the industry if there are no non-union shops. Unlike shared employer blacklists, which are illegal, this is perfectly legal because the union isn't sharing a blacklist - they just so happen to have a monopoly on hiring and also have the legal right to refuse you membership.

Ironically, it would be illegal for the company to fire you in this position, but unions have far fewer restrictions on whether or not they can deny or terminate membership, even in retaliation.

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#256

Post by galtwho »

ewwertee2454 wrote: post #153
deminature wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suing is a surefire pathway to being made a pariah, case in point Ellen Pao. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pao_v._Kleiner_Perkins

> ...pa ... I understand that English has absorbed that word and its meaning in the current sense. But please don't use that word. That is like the n-word in south india. It is specifically used to refer to people in a derogatory way.

Don't think you are right on this...

PS : putting this here for those who may be misinformed

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#257

Post by mistercow »

xor1 wrote: post #85
blazespin wrote: post #8

The problem is that men misconstrue the natural social and friendly tendency of most women as sexual advances. There needs to be more education in this respect with men. Just because a woman is chatty and willing to collaborate doesn't mean she wants to sleep with you. I know that sounds sexist, but honestly, I think women just are naturally or at least culturally (does the difference matter in this case, really?) mo…

>I think women just are naturally or at least culturally (does the difference matter in this case, really?) more social This is really sexist.

I think there's a fair point to be made that some gender norms around friendliness in women are often misconstrued by men as flirtatious. Or put another way, women are expected to behave in a more "flirty" way, or they're seen as cold and bitchy. But if they do act more flirty, they're seen as "leading men on".

I think the technical term for this is "Some Grade A Bullshit", but it's been a while since I read a sociology textbook.

None of this really has anything to do with the case at hand though.

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#258

Post by lostboys67 »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #36
gkoberger wrote: post #19

One thing that every employee needs to understand is that HR is not your friend. No matter how friendly or helpful they seem, their job is not to protect you. It's to protect the company.

Sure they're not your friend, but Jesus Christ, the amount of legal trouble this particular HR establishment exposed themselves to through their actions is breathtaking. THAT'S their job: to prevent the company from getting sued!! In this case I'm completely bewildered as to why HR handled this particular situation so clumsily.

Yes it's either collusion or NCI (Non Culpable Incompetence) Gross misconduct is another potential

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#259

Post by lostboys67 »

chimeracoder wrote: post #255
frobozz wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union representative is the next logical step. They will be able to represent you anonymously at first, and bring a collective action against the perpetrator if there have been multiple incidents against multiple victims. If you wish to take it to court yourself, then they may also be able to provide you with or help you find an appropriate lawyer for the case.

> A union representative is the next logical step. Unions can have benefits sometimes, but handling issues related to harassment is not one. > They will be able to represent you anonymously at first, and bring a collective action against the perpetrator if there have been multiple incidents against multiple victims. Or, if the perpetrator is a peer but holds a position of power within the union, they may simply decid…

Why representing members at grievance hearings is a union bread and butter issue

Re: Uber Investigating Sexual Harassment Claims by Ex-Employee

#260

Post by chimeracoder »

lostboys67 wrote: post #259
chimeracoder wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A union representative is the next logical step. Unions can have benefits sometimes, but handling issues related to harassment is not one. > They will be able to represent you anonymously at first, and bring a collective action against the perpetrator if there have been multiple incidents against multiple victims. Or, if the perpetrator is a peer but holds a position of power within the union, they may simply decid…

Why representing members at grievance hearings is a union bread and butter issue

> Why representing members at grievance hearings is a union bread and butter issue

In theory. And disciplining or terminating employees who expose the company to well-documented, open-and-shut lawsuits is an HR bread and butter issue. Yet here we are.

If you really want someone who will be legally bound to represent you without conflict of interest, and with legal protection against retaliation, you want a lawyer, not a union rep. And you can do that with or without a union. (And employment attorneys already operate on contingency for most straightforward cases like these).

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