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Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

susanjfowler.com

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Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#571

Post by xor1 »

mightykan wrote: post #541
BinaryIdiot wrote: post #139

I may have experienced a little bit of sexual harassment in my youth when working at a local McDonald's but, being a guy, it was the only time and I was able to put a stop to be rather quickly. However, being in software engineering for the past 12 years, I have seen the sexual harassment of several women all of which never saw a proper resolution. For instance I worked at a small company that was later bought by a l…

We should teach our sons to truly respect women. We should teach our sons to be respectful honest decent human beings. We should teach our sons to not be assholes who think they are entitled to a woman’s body. We should teach our sons to be humans with emotions and empathy for others. We should teach our sons to not be toxic despicable entitled pathetic beings. It’s on us (men). If we behave badly, it’s squarely on u…

You're missing a huge part of the problem here. People with power are the ones who need to be "taught" (punished).

This behavior can only occur repeatedly when someone can get away with it, because they have power. If they don't have power, they are punished (often harshly), and a rational person will not repeat that behavior.

Your blanket approach is completely ridiculous. You act like the problem is that men aren't being "taught" properly, when the real problem is that there is little or no accountability for people who have accumulated enough money and/or political power (whether it be on a social scale, or within an organization, as seen in the article).

It's also very wrong for you to assume that only men can abuse their power. Fowler's article even has an example of women abusing it (HR).

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#572

Post by brudgers »

minimaxir wrote: post #414

Travis Kalanick's response: https://twitter.com/travisk/status/833480964315557888 > 1/ What's described here is abhorrent & against everything we believe in. Anyone who behaves this way or thinks this is OK will be fired. > 2/ I've instructed our CHRO Liane to conduct an urgent investigation. There can be absolutely no place for this kind of behavior at Uber.

HR already investigated. Putting the Chief Human Resource Officer in charge implies what the investigation will conclude: rouge employees. Because if it was institutional, the CHRO would be responsible.

Then again, it isn't a commitment to cleaning out HR beyond anyone there who says, 'Oh I think it is ok.' And the whole 'thinking' thing is a way of backing off under the cover of 'We don't want to be thought police.'

There's no taking of responsibility for what happened on his watch. No personal commitment to action. No promise of full disclosure. This is damage control and the fact that HR is in charge of investigating allegations against it suggests that the plan is cover up. The CEO sets the culture.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#573

Post by jbronn »

tjalfi wrote: post #528
jonathankoren wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We have a pro-drinking culture at my company due to the nature of the business Do tell what business this is, because unless the industry is alcohol production, I'm having a hard time believing this is an instrinc quality of an industry and not just a "boys will be boys" excuse.

Alcohol use isn't an intrinsic quality of the legal industry but it might as well be. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4736291/ The following excerpt is the first sentence of the conclusion. "Attorneys experience problematic drinking that is hazardous, harmful, or otherwise consistent with alcohol use disorders at a higher rate than other professional populations."

This morbid fact is actually taught in law school. Something like 10% of attorneys abuse substances, multiple times over the national average. To demonstrate the scope of the problem: a phone number for an assistance hotline is placed in bold on all Texas state bar cards.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#574

Post by computerex »

true_religion wrote: post #482
uber_eng_throw wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hijacking this top comment to provide some personal experiences. I started as an engineer in the spring of 2014 and this was definitely the case there. Top engineers were being poached from Google/FB and these people were trying to carve out territory in a quickly growing engineering team. The misogynistic culture, in my mind, comes from most of the early employees being former frat bros. Culture was extremely heavy…

Can you elaborate more on the misogyny that was part of the culture? So far you've only identified that they like drinking, traveling and were part of the Greek social system in university. What I'm looking for are instances of demeaning women, discounting their achievements, systemic disapproval for the words of women, favours being handed out on the basis of gender, solicitation of sexual favours in non-equal power…

Did you not read the article? Literally has an example of everything you are referring to.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#575

Post by stevebmark »

smhost wrote: post #352
username223 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Salary? Stock options? Are they really so much above typical Bay Area rates? > Career path? Career security? Plenty of people are still hiring in the current bubble, and she's an SRE, not an auto specialist or something. > Coworkers? Like the one who dropped his pants? > The early belief that HR would help correct this? Of which she was quickly disabused.

I think the downvotes might be from people who want to be super careful about victim-blaming. But I agree with you that we should be training people to detect bullshit early on and to just get the fuck out in those situations. Labeling her actions as rational and healthy is probably not helpful either.

You both should sit this one out. Talk to your women engineer friends to get a better understanding of the situation.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#576

Post by rdtsc »

logandavis wrote: post #69

By all indications, Uber has a toxic work culture that costs them both top talent and organizational velocity. I'm a college senior at a well-regarded engineering school. My CS classmates - especially women - simply do not apply to Uber, in large part because of its reputation for internal misogyny and general assholery. Four classmates interned there last summer, and as far as I know none are interested in returning…

> My CS classmates - especially women - simply do not apply to Uber,

The sad thing is why do men want to apply there after what is know about it? I wouldn't want to be near any company that treats any of their employees like that.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#577

Post by jasonlingx »

knucklesandwich wrote: post #380
um_ya wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions originated as a way to commoditise labor. It has since grown into a way to keep out freelance competitors, and to force employers into doing things (both of which I don't agree with). In terms of commoditsing labor, tech is a very skill specific profession with no cookie cutter employee to sell, which makes it a bad candidate for unions.

This notion that there is a wide distribution in engineer competency has come under a lot of criticism for many reasons (not the least of which being that its often used as a cover for discrimination on the basis of gender): https://lwn.net/Articles/641779/ If you believe there to be such a wide distribution in talent and that salaries at your company are commensurately paid, I suggest you ask your employer if they w…

Rock stars don't need unions.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#578

Post by user5994461 »

x0x0 wrote: post #409
ChuckMcM wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Top engineers were being poached from Google/FB and these people > were trying to carve out territory in a quickly growing engineering > team. It is always a bit sad when one of the top characteristic of an engineer from organization X is their political ability to carve out an empire. I'm a bit surprised she doesn't have at least one law firm trying to get her to be the lead claimant in a class action lawsuit. See…

My partner was in a somewhat similar position. When she spoke to a lawyer, the lawyer asked her two questions: 1 - did she ever want to work in X industry again / was she comfortable with being blacklisted, legal or not; 2 - was she comfortable with this being what she did with the next two years of her life It's a harder decision to make than you think. Not to mention the unrelenting wave of assholery that would be…

Great, less competition will make her cheaper.

In the world of grown-up business, as opposed to SV bro startups, that's just one new business opportunity arising to poach talent!

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#579

Post by weixiyen »

symlinkk wrote: post #46
pvg wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much 'easy lawsuit money' have you collected? Or anyone you personally know?

admittedly, none. but this still seems like an open and shut case.

not always, these things are normally drawn out and end up in settlements because HR could have done just enough to stay within the bounds of what is legal. Technically they did not fire her, only made her life difficult and perhaps did not take disciplinary action towards her manager.

When she does sue, every employer she ever worked for will be subject to a subpeona, including her current employer, and it's really a drag for everyone involved, and emotionally taxing.

This blog post is actually a worst-case scenario for Uber, because the cost of the settlement is nothing compared to the negative publicity. If she wanted to hurt Uber, this was actually a great way to go about it, and she should be commended for putting her own future job prospects at risk by going public with her name. It might encourage other people to speak up and eventually lead to a bigger lawsuit that can lead to punitive damages, which is an order of magnitude more costly for Uber than a settlement had she simply filed a lawsuit by herself.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#580

Post by dkarapetyan »

pvg wrote: post #161
dkarapetyan wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineers, especially the ones at Susan's level, are pretty well paid. Suing would have definitely been an option for her.

What is the last lawsuit you voluntarily started? A lot of things are 'an option'.

As a typical white male my life is surprisingly easy even when it is not easy. I've never been wronged the way Susan was so I've never had to think about suing anyone really.
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