Live data from Hacker News

Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

susanjfowler.com

531–540 of 1001 posts

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#531
post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking about the attrition rate of female engineers, I wonder if there's a similar rate of male engineers who leave due to how badly their female colleagues are treated in addition to the other factors listed in this thread and Fowler's piece. If so, that would imply that the engineering culture is being distilled into an evermore toxic workplace, since those who stay are those who make the place toxic or are simpl…

I really doubt this. A lot of men are totally unaware of how women are treated, which fellow men on their team are harassers, or don't believe women when they report harassment. My evidence for this is every man in tech reacting with shock to this story, and every woman I know saying "yep, I have a story like this," or "I know many women with stories like this"

So you were also shocked by this story?

If not, I guess neither of us exist, because I (sadly) wasn't.

Edit: Originally said: So let's leave out the "every man" crap and focus on making the world a better place, please.

As grzm points out, I'm an idiot. Disregard the above sentence.

But still, people who wouldn't appreciate this crap definitely exist, and our quitting/refusing to be recruited would likely still make a point.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#532
post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I assume you're talking about me (the person above expressing some skepticism about the 10x programmer thing). I'm actually open to be proven wrong, but I'm not sure that makes much of a difference in terms of how compensation is justified in the real world (again, ask your employer to provide justification for salaries if you think 10x programmers exist and they are paid as such). Whether or not I'm right, I'm o…

> A professional association by contrast does not work to help workers in a workplace dispute. Some don't. Some do. I am currently a member of one that does, up to and including litigating a case is appropriate.

Sure, this will often happen if litigation can set some precedent that benefits the profession as a whole. For example the AMA will take up cases that can challenge legal precedent on malpractice damages limits. Sometimes these disputes can be with management, but generally these kind of interventions are done as part of professional advocacy.

However a professional association is effectively limited in what it can do in a labor dispute because management has no obligation to collectively bargain with them, hence this is not really the purpose of professional associations.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#533
post #433

I'm curious if it's actually worth keeping high performing people on your company if they create a lot of internal conflict and employee turnover. Have there been studies that have looked into this? Are there HR tools that track this? This situation reminds me of the Jeremy Clarkson Effect ( https://blog.vanillaforums.com/help/how-to/dealing-with-toxi... ) where you keep people on board because they are high performe…

It's absolutely not worth it. The 10x engineer is an engineer who helps make everyone around them better. A toxic employee is not that person.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#534
post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really doubt this. A lot of men are totally unaware of how women are treated, which fellow men on their team are harassers, or don't believe women when they report harassment. My evidence for this is every man in tech reacting with shock to this story, and every woman I know saying "yep, I have a story like this," or "I know many women with stories like this"

So you were also shocked by this story? If not, I guess neither of us exist, because I (sadly) wasn't. Edit: Originally said: So let's leave out the "every man" crap and focus on making the world a better place, please. As grzm points out, I'm an idiot. Disregard the above sentence. But still, people who wouldn't appreciate this crap definitely exist, and our quitting/refusing to be recruited would likely still make…

I think you're likely misreading the sentence: see

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13683594

Edit: minor wording change.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#535

Uber employee here. This was a disheartening story to read to say the least. I hope that she sues as her case is abundantly clear and the response by HR and the management chain was absolutely unacceptable. If what happened is true, they should be held accountable. Unfortunately, from my perspective, Uber has a track record of lack of accountability when it comes to leadership/managers. Pretty much everyone I know at…

you seem to be a decent enough person. get out or you'll regret it.

>It has created work opportunities for millions essentially out of thin air has fundamentally changed how people think about transportation in cities for the better.

uber is just riding a wave whose time has come and doing it shoddily and without finesse. the idea of uber has no special brilliance.

get out.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most companies operate on the myth that the people responsible for doing work are interchangeable cogs that can be eliminated and replaced by a new doer with little to no impact to how the company functions. So if you have enough traumatic brain damage to buy that line, stack ranking makes a ton of sense.

I had this exact same conversation with a manager who seemed suprised when I told him people are not interchangeable cogs. He said that some people may be quicker at a particular technology / domain / whatever, or quicker to ramp up, or do slightly better work, but smart engineers can and do learn anything needed and do work that's good enough after a ramp-up that's short enough. Beyond that, he says, there are minor…

This is largely a natural difference in perspective.

The typical interaction between manager & engineer is that a manager tells an employee what to do, and the employee does it. From the manager's perspective, any employee that's reasonably competent will do: success is binary, either you did the assigned task satisfactorily or you didn't.

From the engineer's perspective, if you're good you considered a lot of alternative ways of solving the problem and finally settled on the best. It seems ridiculous that all employees could be interchangeable, because it's a pretty good bet that some engineers did not consider some of the alternative solutions you did. But remember that the whole reason the manager hired you was so that he didn't need to think about the details. All of those alternative solutions are outside of his conscious awareness; he's condensed his mental model of the problem to a binary "is this good enough to ship?", which frees up mental space for him to think about other stuff. Among those engineers that you think of as "not good enough", there are some who may not have thought of the brilliant solution that you came up with but still have code that is "good enough to ship" in the manager's estimation, and those are the irritating folks on your team who IYNSHO always produce shitty code but stay on the team because they have your manager's political favor. And then there are the folks who both you and your manager agree are too shitty to get the job done, and they're fired.

Who's right? Well, both of you, and neither of you. It's fairly likely that you're overestimating the quality requirements for the job, which is why a number of your shitty coworkers still have jobs. It's also fairly likely that your manager does not have complete visibility into all the long-term consequences of all the code being produced, which is why whole teams occasionally just catastrophically fail.

But it's worth remembering that every time you enter a transaction, you're having your work reduced to a pass/fail grade. It's the fundamental bargain you make when you take a job, and it also is the fundamental bargain you make when you sell a product (entrepreneurs are not exempt from this, and it's a major cause of startup failure among technical founders...including, quite possibly, mine). The advantage of producing better work is that it qualifies you for more different opportunities - which may or may not be relevant, depending on whether you take advantage of those opportunities.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fools gold, pretty soon.

This. I would be ashamed to have Uber on my resume for much longer after this story ran, and will think twice when interviewing a candidate who does.

People can have reasons to stay at their current jobs. The author of the article did, even.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#538
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be okay with it if you started a new job and your boss instantly propositioned you?

Of course not, but i'll just tell her / him i'm not interested, and see if the person's keep insisting and make my life at work miserable, or if he's just a desperate person having a very bad day... There are many reason why someone would be a pain to work with honestly. I could imagine someone insisting on people going to drink after work being a pita for a muslim for example, or a guy talking all the time about pol…

You are extending a lot of good will towards the "ask my female employees for sex on the first day" boss in this situation. "a desperate person having a very bad day"? I encourage you to reflect on your investment in extending to this person such an excuse. Why should that person not endure whatever scrutiny would follow from an HR inquiry into that behavior? Why is your instinct to shield that person, by suggesting that it might be the author's responsibility to brush it off?

"sex is handled extremely differently than the rest ... [is there] reason for that[?]" I mean US internet culture is the place where this baleful notion of the "friend zone" exists: men who complain bitterly that being nice to women does not secure for them a sexual relationship. Denigration or retaliation following sexual rejection is a well-documented practice. From what history do you think sexual harassment laws spring? Women fought for them because they survived regular abuse, manipulation and retaliation from men (especially superiors). Have you read any of this history? for example: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2011/1114/The-evolution...

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strictly speaking asking a subordinate for sex is not always a harassment (but very frequently is).

What are the scenarios where it is and isn't harassment? I have not knowledge or experience in this area, so to me it looks you'd either have to use very vulgar language, do it repeatedly after being told it is unwanted or basically have negative intention. Else it's just an odd thing to do at workplace. Note, I am asking this as genuinely curious foreigner from very un-PC culture. Not trying to be annoying or anythi…

Appreciate your politeness in a such controversial topic.

Apparently, when the both persons are already in a romantic relationship, or are spouses (which can happen in a family business) it's not harassment. Thus, whether such offer is harassment or not is based on a subjective judgement of each party, rather than some hard-coded rule. In the case described by the author it was clearly harassment because one party perceived it so.

Even when it's not harassment and wanted by both parties, it still can be undesirable from a professional ethics perspective as it can affect morale of other employees. So it leaves very few cases when it's acceptable, but they do exist.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#540
post #534
post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you were also shocked by this story? If not, I guess neither of us exist, because I (sadly) wasn't. Edit: Originally said: So let's leave out the "every man" crap and focus on making the world a better place, please. As grzm points out, I'm an idiot. Disregard the above sentence. But still, people who wouldn't appreciate this crap definitely exist, and our quitting/refusing to be recruited would likely still make…

I think you're likely misreading the sentence: see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13683594 Edit: minor wording change.

Thanks; edited original.
Post reply on HN