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Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

susanjfowler.com

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Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#251

Post by bootload »

projektir wrote: post #237
bootload wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Culture was extremely heavy on the drinking;" For me this is a red flag. Booze + programming == pissed programming This leads to bad code also bad team dynamics. Ultimately this will reflect on the product and bottom line. For individuals this reads like a culture where the barrel is creating ^bad apples^. Not a good look on a resume.

We have a pro-drinking culture at my company due to the nature of the business and I haven't found that it's causing any problems. It's generally done outside of work or for specific events, and I've never felt unsafe on any gathering where a lot of drinking was going on. This is a red herring, if anything. I think there's a difference between a culture where people drink a lot vs a culture where people get black out…

"We have a pro-drinking culture at my company due to the nature of the business and I haven't found that it's causing any problems."

Anecdotal.

If drinking is done outside work/events this isn't what is being described in the article. What about the personal who a) don't drink or b) harassed by those who do? Drinking at work tells me the place isn't interested in performance or their customers.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#252

Post by tptacek »

jacquesm wrote: post #44

What's with all the 'this is unbelievable' comments here? This is absolutely believable, Uber has pretty much made it their standard to break the laws where-ever they can, why should work place conduct be any different? In for a penny, in for a pound. You'd never hear something even close to this from Stripe or some other company run by upstanding folks. Fish rots from the head.

I fully expected this thread to be a shitshow, but comments here are overwhelmingly supportive of Fowler, and except perhaps for the very bottom of the thread, I don't see much much "this is unbelievable" at all. I'm pleasantly surprised.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#253

Post by mattdeboard »

ben_olive wrote: post #219

HR fucked up and the manager should not have talked to her that way. Absolutely agree. I believe she has grounds to sue if she wishes. Now, I think it's easy to take this type of situations and overeact. The behavior Susan described is not appropriate. That said, I think there is a trend to classify any romantic behavior or advances as sexual assault and innpapropriate behavior. Nowadays I would have a very hard time…

It's wrong for a manager to put a direct report in a position where they have to reject their manager in a personal context.

All that other shit about general situations with workplace relationships really doesn't have anything to do with anything.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#254

Post by home_boi »

uber_eng_throw wrote: post #137
logandavis wrote: post #69

By all indications, Uber has a toxic work culture that costs them both top talent and organizational velocity. I'm a college senior at a well-regarded engineering school. My CS classmates - especially women - simply do not apply to Uber, in large part because of its reputation for internal misogyny and general assholery. Four classmates interned there last summer, and as far as I know none are interested in returning…

Hijacking this top comment to provide some personal experiences. I started as an engineer in the spring of 2014 and this was definitely the case there. Top engineers were being poached from Google/FB and these people were trying to carve out territory in a quickly growing engineering team. The misogynistic culture, in my mind, comes from most of the early employees being former frat bros. Culture was extremely heavy…

The booze thing gets exaggerated at many places. It is usually the marketing/HR/business dev/sales teams that indulge in that culture. The engineering team is usually much more constrained in their alcohol consumption, although the media groups them with the frat boys from sales.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#255

Post by tptacek »

ben_olive wrote: post #219

HR fucked up and the manager should not have talked to her that way. Absolutely agree. I believe she has grounds to sue if she wishes. Now, I think it's easy to take this type of situations and overeact. The behavior Susan described is not appropriate. That said, I think there is a trend to classify any romantic behavior or advances as sexual assault and innpapropriate behavior. Nowadays I would have a very hard time…

If you'll take a moment to reread the entire article, you'll see that she did not in fact overreact --- in fact, if anything, she underreacted, staying on long after the incident you're commenting on, working exclusively with management to resolve her problems, and leaving the company only after gross mistreatment both in employee reviews and by HR.

Could you perhaps try giving the article another read and let us know if you still think this critique you've offered was worth writing?

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#256

Post by twblalock »

stickfigure wrote: post #134
grey-area wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suing would have lots of negative consequences, and few upsides. It would take up months of time, be immensely frustrating, stressful and lead other employers to be wary of you in future (even if most wouldn't admit it). Your name would be dragged through the mud by Uber in an attempt to derail the case, and you'd become an online target for haters (as with Ellen Pao). All for some uncertain monetary reward. Who need…

If this article catches public attention, Uber will attempt to bring these canons to bear anyway.

It's currently the top story on The Verge.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#257

Post by tptacek »

jbronn wrote: post #249
tptacek wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only is this true, but the NLRA also bars employer retaliation against concerted actions by employees both to organize and also to take actions in protest of work conditions. It's a huge exception to at-will employment. I had no idea about any of this stuff until I started talking to the Tech Solidarity people. I'd always thought the reason nobody goes on strike is that you'd simply be fired for doing so. But, no…

While technically true, the enforcement is up to the Department of Labor. Do you honestly believe that Puzder (now Acosta) is really going to enforce these rules? It's the whole reason they were chosen for the position in the first place.

No, enforcement is not up to the Department of Labor. If you're terminated for organizing and protesting against working conditions, your recourse includes the courts.

People should, of course, talk to labor lawyer before organizing. Tech Solidarity is working with several now, and collecting employment contracts from the best-known tech companies in order to provide standardized organizing advice.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#258

Post by metafunctor »

luckydude wrote: post #232
bootload wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Culture was extremely heavy on the drinking;" For me this is a red flag. Booze + programming == pissed programming This leads to bad code also bad team dynamics. Ultimately this will reflect on the product and bottom line. For individuals this reads like a culture where the barrel is creating ^bad apples^. Not a good look on a resume.

Why is this getting down voted? Am I missing something in bootload's post? Seems pretty reasonable to me. Don't get me wrong, I like to drink, but drinking and programming don't mix well for me at least. I need my brain cells working, not partying, when I'm trying to write code. Maybe that's my age showing.

Probably because it's conflating drinking and misogyny.

Drinking and programming surely don't mix well. However, a culture that involves, or even promotes, drinking and partying doesn't have to be misogynistic. I've worked in companies that held parties several times per week, with plenty of booze, and they were nothing like what was depicted in TFA.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#259

Post by projektir »

BigMan555 wrote: post #184
dkarapetyan wrote: post #66

Susan is ~an industry veteran~ a somewhat experienced engineer and her interactions with HR are typical of what I've seen so I would have expected her to know how things would play out. In my experience HR is never there to protect the employees. HR is there to make sure the company doesn't get into any hot legal waters. Most of the time the easiest way to do that is to just suppress any wrongdoing and sideline whoev…

I'm as horrified by the story as anyone, but I don't think the author can be considered an industry veteran. I just looked at her LinkedIn profile and she graduated from undergrad in 2014 and held two <=6 month jobs before joining Uber.

Graduated two years ago and already has a book out, quite the career progress.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#260

Post by mikeash »

mnx wrote: post #212
DrJaws wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that they "poached" engineers make it look like they are property of a company and can't move looking for better opportunities.

I don't like that word either, but it seems to be the standard term.

"Hired" would work just as well here.
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