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The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

theatlantic.com

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Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#41

Post by TaylorAlexander »

caisah wrote: post #13
vinhboy wrote: post #2

> It’s also not Zuckerberg’s responsibility to solve a broken business model in journalism. (One could argue he has a moral imperative to do so, given his position of power, but that’s not the same thing.) That line is pretty much all you need to know about the article, despite what the title is claiming. In my opinion. If anything is destroying journalism, it's the fact that half this country does not care for fact…

>it's the fact that half this country does not care for fact vs fiction. Sometimes is not that simple. A lot of this is related to personal biases and just the way the brain works. Ofcourse people can try to train theirselves into being more skeptic but in a world in which every day you are bombarded with information is pretty hard to find the time and motivation to do so.

I feel like what you're saying is: humans have inherent flaws.

Even if it were the case that Mark Zuckerburg was exploiting those flaws for personal benefit, I find it hard to blame him - we live in and support a society that encourages that behavior. If exploiting human flaws for profit is an undesired outcome for human organizations, we should work to stop encouraging that behavior.

I will however provide a counter point to my own argument, which is that we should name and shame those who abuse human nature at society's expense for their own benefit. Otherwise we end up with a society full of people who are actively harming society.

Honestly I don't know what to think. I just wanted to provide both of these views. I'm curious what the response to either views is.

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#42

Post by kraftomatic »

hxta98596 wrote: post #38

This is an odd editorial. The author stretches to explain how Zuck's Manifesto released this week could destroy journalism. But then she provides evidence that journalism is for all intents and purposes already dead. She cites a (possibly inflated) prime time news audience size of ~3 million people, and 1.5 million digital subscribers for the NYT...So less than 1% of America are using these previously major sources o…

I agree: journalism has let it's industry fall in to disrepute . It's no surprise that people are so easily convinced to move to new models of information delivery when you look at the current state of news organisations.

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#43

Post by rjvir »

kraftomatic wrote: post #39
WildUtah wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook should not a lone scapegoat Actually it was Craigslist. Back before the internet, the single biggest pot of newspaper revenue was classified ads.

I think Craigslist is a US problem. Internationally I think the traditional news approach has had many different challenges. Classified advertising also has had different challenges around the world, such as dedicated publications.

The fundamental challenge is that of having hand-delivered paper newspapers be the centralized hub of information.

Any manifestation of the Internet makes that obsolete - but the specific method of obsoletion may be different by country.

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#45

Post by r3bl »

vinhboy wrote: post #2

> It’s also not Zuckerberg’s responsibility to solve a broken business model in journalism. (One could argue he has a moral imperative to do so, given his position of power, but that’s not the same thing.) That line is pretty much all you need to know about the article, despite what the title is claiming. In my opinion. If anything is destroying journalism, it's the fact that half this country does not care for fact…

> it's the fact that half this country does not care for fact vs fiction.

I know Facebook is a US-based product and everything, but I'm really getting sick and tired of products that are used all over the world getting adjusted just because they are a problem now in the US.

First we had "fake news" (which used to be called just propaganda), which we have dealt with long before Internet was even a big thing in our region[0]. Now this.

Media survives just fine here. Most people still don't use adblockers and most people are ready to donate for good quality journalism (in fact, there's a Serbian-based investigative reporting center that's currently making an excellent progress in moving away from grants to one-time donations by their readers, and there are other digital-only media sources across Europe which are even breaking records living off of subscriptions by being transparent and talkative to their audience[1]). But nope, instead of doing their own thing, they're going to have to adjust because Facebook wants to promote more "local" things to encourage "civil engagement" because a "research suggests it" (keep in mind there's not a single mention of what that research might actually be, neither in the article itself, nor in the manifesto).

You have separate sections in every newspaper what so ever, and unlike in Facebook's very specific, and very tailored to every individual bubbles, at least you skim through the headlines from other sections while you're trying to locate something you will actually read. That alone makes you more informed about what is going on more than Facebook's bubbles ever will.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_during_the_Yugoslav...

[1] https://medium.com/de-correspondent

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#46

Post by kelnos »

RyanZAG wrote: post #3
vinhboy wrote: post #2

> It’s also not Zuckerberg’s responsibility to solve a broken business model in journalism. (One could argue he has a moral imperative to do so, given his position of power, but that’s not the same thing.) That line is pretty much all you need to know about the article, despite what the title is claiming. In my opinion. If anything is destroying journalism, it's the fact that half this country does not care for fact…

> In my opinion. If anything is destroying journalism, it's the fact that half this country does not care for fact vs fiction. Why is this a problem that needs to be solved though? A big part of being free is being able to choose what you get to care about, being able to choose what you get to read, and being able to have your own opinions. Remove that, and you're no longer free. Would it be better to not be a free p…

I would like to agree with you, but if you get a large enough group that believes that fiction is truth, that can do a lot of harm to the people who actually do believe in facts.

That's where I (personally) draw the line on everything: do literally whatever the hell you want, as long as you aren't harming anyone else in the process. Obviously there are nuances, and sometimes causing some harm in the pursuit of the greater good is acceptable, but I think this principle is a sound starting point.

And that's the thing. You can be a climate-change denier all you want, but once that starts affecting public policy, that's a problem, because, for example, eviscerating the EPA will have far-reaching, long-term, negative effects on life on our planet.

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#47

Post by kelnos »

hkmurakami wrote: post #32
eropple wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can, and should, have your own opinions . Does that extend to facts ?

Questioning our assumptions and commonly held beliefs (even facts!) should be encouraged as an integral part of intellectual discourse. I'm saddened by the current state of affairs where increasingly polarized factions feel that taking nuanced (rather than absolutist) positions threatens their positions and gives up ground to the opposition.

Questioning established beliefs and fact should absolutely be encouraged. But that questioning must be grounded in a good-faith, logical, reasonable belief that contrary evidence exists. When mountains of evidence are provided that support existing facts, and you are unable to come up with any persuasive evidence or avenues of research to contradict those facts, you are an idiot and have no place influencing or making public policy.

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#49

Post by kelnos »

aanm1988 wrote: post #30
frik wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is destroying journalism is also relying too much on news sources like AP, Reuters, etc. Let's call it copy&paste news articles. They should do their homework and investigate on their own, that's their job description after all. We don't need these cheap media that just reprint propaganda-style sponsored stories.

> We don't need these cheap media that just reprint propaganda-style sponsored stories. What's destroying journalism is people like you calling out media as propaganda, fake news, etc...

Well, yes and no. Does the media sometimes present propaganda and fake news as fact? Sure. Not always, but sure, it happens. Calling out specific media outlets when they do this is absolutely necessary. Of course, labeling media as fake news simply because the facts they report disagree with your ideology is dishonest and reprehensible.

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#50

Post by arjie »

r3bl wrote: post #45
vinhboy wrote: post #2

> It’s also not Zuckerberg’s responsibility to solve a broken business model in journalism. (One could argue he has a moral imperative to do so, given his position of power, but that’s not the same thing.) That line is pretty much all you need to know about the article, despite what the title is claiming. In my opinion. If anything is destroying journalism, it's the fact that half this country does not care for fact…

> it's the fact that half this country does not care for fact vs fiction. I know Facebook is a US-based product and everything, but I'm really getting sick and tired of products that are used all over the world getting adjusted just because they are a problem now in the US. First we had "fake news" (which used to be called just propaganda), which we have dealt with long before Internet was even a big thing in our reg…

That's what being the little guy is. If you want different results you have to be the big guy. Can't be helped.
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