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Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

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Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#171
An hypothesis about much of the criticism for this change, and similar movements of outrage on the Internet. It's amateur social theory and goodness knows we don't need more of that, but I haven't seen it said like this:

People naturally feel anger in their lives (about home, work, politics, health, etc.) that is not socially acceptable to act on; to varying degrees, they need an outlet. It's not a new phenomenon; some go to the gym or play video games (where some act out on audio channels); some people drink heavily; some abuse people close to them, or the waitress, or get in a fight at the bar, or join an angry mob and lynch someone in the streets. When there is a socially acceptable target, indicated by lots of other people acting out, they act out too.

Changes like Firefox's attract outrage not because they are wrong but because they create a social attack surface: People can see that the change isn't socially secure (e.g., messages about inclusiveness are relatively secure right now[0]) and thus know that it will be a target for attacks; again, it's socially acceptable. They attack because it's a vulnerable target; there is chum in the social waters.

Consider how much of such outrage completely disregards the facts and betrays a lack of interest in learning the facts. They make no effort to learn about the facts - I see almost no discussion of the merits or facts on this page - and you can put the information in front of their eyes and they will ignore it and attack you: by not joining them you expose your own social vulnerability.

It's very dangerous socially; mass bullying campaigns have serious, real effects on their victims. Whole nations embrace bad policies, from discrimination against their own to war, that can kill in the hundreds of thousands or more and ruin generations. Evil leaders manipulate this phenomenon.

But also consider the affect it has on innovation, something we should be very concerned about at HN. It stops innovators from getting too far ahead of what's already accepted; they will be judged by their social security not its merits. It kills innovations from those who are socially acceptable; for example, the Blackberry Passport was the most innovative phone in years, but it was trashed, including on HN, because Blackberry Inc. was socially vulnerable, an outcast.

If you read this far, thanks for listening!

[0] To be clear, I'm not disparaging them - I strongly support them.

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#172

Firefox has 6.6% market share in browsers.[1] By the time Firefox 57 comes out, Firefox may not matter. Supporting Yahoo Search as the default didn't help. Mozilla is dropping not only the old XUL interface, but the new Jetpack/Add-on SDK interface that's only worked right for about four years. Dropping XUL make sense; the mobile version of Firefox never supported XUL anyway. But there's no reason to drop Jetpack. Th…

I've read it is about twice that. How does one know what numbers to believe?

[deleted]

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#173
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er, designing an honest-to-god specified extensions API is harder than just telling addons developers to run wild with your undocumented and unstable browser internals. Appealing to PG makes no sense here.

> designing an honest-to-god specified extensions API is harder Of course it's hard. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. > Appealing to PG makes no sense here. When the argument is being made that it's better to make it easier on Firefox developers at the cost of the user base, the argument made in PG's essay is pretty relevant.

> Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

It is being done. That's what people are up in arms about.

> When the argument is being made that it's better to make it easier on Firefox developers at the cost of the user base

As far as I can tell, you're the only one making that argument?

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#174

An hypothesis about much of the criticism for this change, and similar movements of outrage on the Internet. It's amateur social theory and goodness knows we don't need more of that, but I haven't seen it said like this: People naturally feel anger in their lives (about home, work, politics, health, etc.) that is not socially acceptable to act on; to varying degrees, they need an outlet. It's not a new phenomenon; so…

I don't think so, I think its that Firefox used to be awesome. Now people who advocated for them feel betrayed when the search is "updated" to yahoo, the homepage is "improved" to have ads, the menus are "modernized" so you can't find the settings you used to, the add-on system is "secured" so you have to modify your workflow, etc.

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#175
post #46
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the most secure browser available. That's a not a 'might be legitimate' use case.

Citation needed. I found this [0] but maybe you have a better source. This was interesting though: > In the most recent Pwn2Own hacking competition, Chrome came out ahead of every other browser with only one exploit being successfully executed. 0: https://tiptopsecurity.com/what-is-the-most-secure-web-brows...

FWIW, though I'm an avid supporter of Firefox and use it, my very consistent observation is that security experts believe,

* Chrome/Chromium is more secure against attacks by governments or criminals (i.e., attacks against the integrity of the system; I can't think of the right word).

* Firefox may be more secure against advertising and corporate confidentiality attacks.

* Firefox with certain add-ons, too technical for most users, may be as secure as Chrome/Chromium.

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#176
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er, designing an honest-to-god specified extensions API is harder than just telling addons developers to run wild with your undocumented and unstable browser internals. Appealing to PG makes no sense here.

> designing an honest-to-god specified extensions API is harder Of course it's hard. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. > Appealing to PG makes no sense here. When the argument is being made that it's better to make it easier on Firefox developers at the cost of the user base, the argument made in PG's essay is pretty relevant.

> Of course it's hard. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

What? kibwen is saying that that is exactly what Firefox is doing!

Bear in mind that this is not just "copying Chrome's API", it's copying the base design (how the manifest works, etc), and adding new Firefox-specific APIs on top of it. The whole idea is that most of the APIs addons need will be added to firefox's webextensions API.

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#177

Firefox has 6.6% market share in browsers.[1] By the time Firefox 57 comes out, Firefox may not matter. Supporting Yahoo Search as the default didn't help. Mozilla is dropping not only the old XUL interface, but the new Jetpack/Add-on SDK interface that's only worked right for about four years. Dropping XUL make sense; the mobile version of Firefox never supported XUL anyway. But there's no reason to drop Jetpack. Th…

I've read it is about twice that. How does one know what numbers to believe?

Compare [1] and [2] and see if you can figure out why they are so different.

[1] https://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qpr... [2] https://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qpr...

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#178

Is there a quick way to check whether or not specific add-ons are supported in the new version? I'm addicted to tree based tabs (100's of them open at the same time) and Scrapbook. Without those two I would have a very hard time to get through my workday.

I do not know, but can tell you that scrapbook works fine in Pale moon.

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#179
post #174

An hypothesis about much of the criticism for this change, and similar movements of outrage on the Internet. It's amateur social theory and goodness knows we don't need more of that, but I haven't seen it said like this: People naturally feel anger in their lives (about home, work, politics, health, etc.) that is not socially acceptable to act on; to varying degrees, they need an outlet. It's not a new phenomenon; so…

I don't think so, I think its that Firefox used to be awesome. Now people who advocated for them feel betrayed when the search is "updated" to yahoo, the homepage is "improved" to have ads, the menus are "modernized" so you can't find the settings you used to, the add-on system is "secured" so you have to modify your workflow, etc.

Thanks for addressing my comment. Of course I can't speak for everyone (and neither can you or anyone else), but to my general point ...

> people who advocated for them feel betrayed ...

Consider how strong an emotional response that is to a search engine change, etc., especially from people very familiar with IT and capable of adjusting to change (changing the default search engine, for example), and in a context where they see software changes frequently (think of hosted apps like Facebook!).

I don't think Firefox's changes are enough to explain that emotion; if you'll pardon the metaphor, they don't contain enough energy to explain the reaction; the energy must be coming from someplace else. I think the emotion is from someplace else and about something else.

Also, the comments raised above don't address the merits; they reflect only anger, which is consistent with my point. (In fairness, it may not be the context to review the merits of all those changes.)

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read it is about twice that. How does one know what numbers to believe?

Compare [1] and [2] and see if you can figure out why they are so different. [1] https://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qpr... [2] https://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qpr...

Thanks, but you'll understand if I'm not taking the test. What is the difference?
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