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Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#61
post #8

I am honestly starting to believe that Mozilla is trying to run Firefox into the ground. I am not sure if it's just bad decision making or if the decision makers themselves had been bought off by competition, but it sure does feel like this. Why do we need one more Chrome like browser out there? I specifically use Firefox because it's a) not chrome, b) has better addons. If you hamstring the addons and make everythin…

> has better addons The add-ons might be better, but XUL-based Firefox add-ons are not better. They essentially give full control of your computer to the developer of the add-on. There's no permission model. The "APIs" are mostly the internals of Firefox itself, and when Firefox updates, lots of add-ons break. Most add-ons can be ported to webextensions. The ones that can't probably shouldn't have ever been add-ons t…

>The add-ons might be better, but XUL-based Firefox add-ons are not better.

This statement is contradictory.

>They essentially give full control of your computer to the developer of the add-on. There's no permission model.

Yes. I know. That's why it's better.

>Most add-ons can be ported to webextensions. The ones that can't probably shouldn't have ever been add-ons to begin with.

You're pushing a worldview here in which some entity - Mozilla, presumably - sees fit to decide in what way I should, or should not be able to extend my web browser. I reject this premise.

The whole point of XUL/XPCOM, as you yourself seem to realise, is that it naturally exposes browser internals and thereby enables permissionless innovation. The only reason WebExtensions can even support the use cases it can is because Mozilla basically looked at the popular addons and defined it to be able to support corresponding functionality. Extension developers finding gaps in WebExtensions APIs were invited to communicate this to Mozilla - that is, to ask Mozilla for permission to extend the browser in a certain way (and for them to allocate manpower to adding that API, etc.)

The idea is to make WebExtensions politically palatable by happening to support what's popular, but that very approach proves the impracticality of the premise. If ad blockers were invented tomorrow, would there be a WebExtensions API? Probably not. Would Mozilla bother to allocate manpower to adding an API for it when one person has the idea and asks? Probably not. If Firefox (and before that, Mozilla Suite, etc.) had had only WebExtensions-like APIs from day one, would ad blockers exist today? Probably not. Ergo, we can conclude that future, yet unconceived innovations will be prevented by this change. The "ask us to add an API for it" approach is not acceptable, given that the technology to make this a non-issue (XUL/XPCOM) already exists and is in use.

>Lots of other browsers used to do the same thing Firefox does, and chose to use a webextension-like model instead. Why? Because those screenshots of folks with half their screen consumed by toolbars, weird popups, overlays in the browser viewport, extensions that sneakily inject ads into pages, and track user behavior _still exist_. And there's really nothing Mozilla can do to stop them.

This isn't Mozilla's problem, and as you yourself acknowledge, trying to save users from themselves is a futile effort.

>Do you know how Firefox add-ons get approved? A human sits down and sifts through the obfuscated source code. I helped build these tools years ago, I can tell you it's hell. Beyond being error-prone, it causes months-long delays in add-ons getting approved.

If this upsets Mozilla, they could get out of the extension approval business. Nothing obliges them to intermediate themselves in this way.

No version of Firefox which implements restrictive code signing practices will ever touch any system I control. Currently I use Firefox Developer Edition. It doesn't appear it will be updated after version 56.

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Firefox will be better off for only supporting webextensions. Sounds like Firefox developers will be better off. Everyone else will suffer. I'm a developer, I understand how much the job sucks sometimes (that's why it's a job ). But if you want a product to succeed, can't afford to put the comfort of your developers over that of the end user.

Did you get even read the post you just responded to? It had nothing to do with developer comfort.

Oh?

> A human sits down and sifts through the obfuscated source code.

> when Firefox updates, lots of add-ons break

> I can tell you it's hell

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#63
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla may not be an ads company, but they make the vast majority of their money from giving space to ads companies.

Where's that space?

Search companies -- formerly Google, now Yahoo and others -- pay Mozilla so that the browser defaults to their search engine. While it may not be a display ad, it's effectively funded by advertising.

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has better addons The add-ons might be better, but XUL-based Firefox add-ons are not better. They essentially give full control of your computer to the developer of the add-on. There's no permission model. The "APIs" are mostly the internals of Firefox itself, and when Firefox updates, lots of add-ons break. Most add-ons can be ported to webextensions. The ones that can't probably shouldn't have ever been add-ons t…

But I want the addons to have full control over my browser, that's the whole point! It's my browser and I've tailored it to myself and my requirements. The one thing that is striking every time I try to use chrome/chromium is just how limited the addon functionality is and how much less freedom the user has. Have you seen "treestyletabs" implementation on chrome? It's a whole other window that has to be started and p…

While i agree with the idea of being able to install whatever you want. What's wrong with it being behind a developer mode?

I would bet that 99%~ people don't need or even want that kind of absolute freedom. As a chrome user, the only plugin I have that I can't get on the play store is one for downloading youtube videos but I can still install it from the author website, just takes a few extra clicks.

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has better addons The add-ons might be better, but XUL-based Firefox add-ons are not better. They essentially give full control of your computer to the developer of the add-on. There's no permission model. The "APIs" are mostly the internals of Firefox itself, and when Firefox updates, lots of add-ons break. Most add-ons can be ported to webextensions. The ones that can't probably shouldn't have ever been add-ons t…

Lots of other browsers used to do the same thing Firefox does, and chose to use a webextension-like model instead. Really? Name three. Your arguments may be true, yet they fail to answer the question: "If you hamstring the addons and make everything chrome/chromium like, what's the reasons to use FF then?" If Chrome made all the right decisions, we might as well kill off the Firefox project.

Internet Explorer followed the same path. Edge is more restrictive for the same reasons which the Mozilla developers have discussed at length: security and reliability suffered and users inevitably blame the browser for the results.

Here's a comparison: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/extensions/m...

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has better addons The add-ons might be better, but XUL-based Firefox add-ons are not better. They essentially give full control of your computer to the developer of the add-on. There's no permission model. The "APIs" are mostly the internals of Firefox itself, and when Firefox updates, lots of add-ons break. Most add-ons can be ported to webextensions. The ones that can't probably shouldn't have ever been add-ons t…

But I want the addons to have full control over my browser, that's the whole point! It's my browser and I've tailored it to myself and my requirements. The one thing that is striking every time I try to use chrome/chromium is just how limited the addon functionality is and how much less freedom the user has. Have you seen "treestyletabs" implementation on chrome? It's a whole other window that has to be started and p…

But Mozilla cares about average users, not about making something for power-users only. That seems to be the big conflict here: power users saying "you've lost the masses, so make something for us" while Mozilla's mission is making something that would be good for the masses, and they'd rather fail trying than failing that mission by abandoning it.

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#68
post #8

I am honestly starting to believe that Mozilla is trying to run Firefox into the ground. I am not sure if it's just bad decision making or if the decision makers themselves had been bought off by competition, but it sure does feel like this. Why do we need one more Chrome like browser out there? I specifically use Firefox because it's a) not chrome, b) has better addons. If you hamstring the addons and make everythin…

> has better addons The add-ons might be better, but XUL-based Firefox add-ons are not better. They essentially give full control of your computer to the developer of the add-on. There's no permission model. The "APIs" are mostly the internals of Firefox itself, and when Firefox updates, lots of add-ons break. Most add-ons can be ported to webextensions. The ones that can't probably shouldn't have ever been add-ons t…

> They essentially give full control of your computer to the developer of the add-on.

That's the entire point. Firebug could not have existed as a WebExtension, and thus without XUL addons the entire web development field could still be on Venkman or Script Editor rather than where it is now.

The XUL extensions model allows extensions in ways unmatched by WE, and yes the development experience isn't tremendous and it's a serious security risk, but that means it's possible to experiment or customise in ways WE don't allow. Users could get things like NoScript and greasemonkey and ad blockers and tree-style tabs without having to demonstrate its value to the browser developer and needing to get the tool itself or some necessary API integrated and merged into the browser.

> Most add-ons can be ported to webextensions. The ones that can't probably shouldn't have ever been add-ons to begin with.

That is utter garbage.

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#69
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Firefox will be better off for only supporting webextensions. Sounds like Firefox developers will be better off. Everyone else will suffer. I'm a developer, I understand how much the job sucks sometimes (that's why it's a job ). But if you want a product to succeed, can't afford to put the comfort of your developers over that of the end user.

No, security threats make both developers and users worse off. It's undoubtedly true that power users will lose a little of the functionality they like in Firefox, but that normal users will have a more secure browser. I'm sure someone will fork Firefox to keep a version alive for those power users. You might not agree with it, but the logic is sound.

So, fix the problem instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I get it, it's a hard problem to fix. There would be a lot of pain in getting there, both for Mozilla and addon developers. But throwing in the towel feels like a cop-out.

The logic is sound, but so is closing down every theater because someone got shot in one of them. After all, everyone has TVs and blu-ray players now, and you can't get shot in a theater if there are no theaters...

Re: Firefox 57 as the first release where only WebExtensions will be supported

#70
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of other browsers used to do the same thing Firefox does, and chose to use a webextension-like model instead. Really? Name three. Your arguments may be true, yet they fail to answer the question: "If you hamstring the addons and make everything chrome/chromium like, what's the reasons to use FF then?" If Chrome made all the right decisions, we might as well kill off the Firefox project.

Your comment assumes that add-ons are the only reason anyone would ever use Firefox. Personally, I don't use many add-ons, and if Firefox is faster or more battery optimised than Chrome, I'll use it.

Addons are what makes Firefox different. Trading loyal users for those who switch based on circumstantial positions seems absurd to me.
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