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What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

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Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#291

Post by hollander »

tptacek wrote: post #13
intopieces wrote: post #5

Is it worth it to clear those devices and restore from cloud backup after crossing?

I think so. But you want to do it in such a way that there's no "restore" button you could push on your phone once you're compelled to log in to any accounts that are clearly associated with the phone. One way to do this would be to back your phone up, encrypt it, and stash the file somewhere else, then scrub the phone and back that up so that you could, if under questioning by CBP, perform a plausible restore.

What if they ask you for your Google account(s)? Google is social media! Google Plus!?

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#292

Post by infinite8s »

tptacek wrote: post #210
graeme wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

--> The current best practice for border crossings --- really anywhere in the world --- is simply not to carry anything you're unwilling to unlock for Customs. How do password managers play into this? I'm likely going to be traveling to the US on business. I'll be bringing a travel phone rather than a normal phone (This is my standard travel practice for any country). I could do the same with a computer. I don't mind…

If you're not a citizen, I think this is probably pretty simple: don't carry anything across the border that you would be uncomfortable being forced to unlock. There's nothing you can encrypt with a passphrase that is protected from a border search, unless you're comfortable being sent back home, losing your computer hardware, and not being allowed back to the US at least until the next Presidential administration, p…

Say you bring no electronic hardware. Could they make you login to your social media accounts from one of their computers?

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#293

Post by OJFord »

graeme wrote: post #224
tptacek wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're not a citizen, I think this is probably pretty simple: don't carry anything across the border that you would be uncomfortable being forced to unlock. There's nothing you can encrypt with a passphrase that is protected from a border search, unless you're comfortable being sent back home, losing your computer hardware, and not being allowed back to the US at least until the next Presidential administration, p…

Right. Since they may ask for social media passwords, would that imply making a travel profile for my travel devices that has password access to things like Facebook and a subset of sites I'd need, but not necessarily all 400+ of my logins? I don't care if they login to my Facebook (well, I think I don't). I just don't want to have them have everything , because then I'd have to change it all. To be very clear, not p…

Why is this being accepted as even remotely reasonable? What about 'login with Facebook' sites?

We here know that we should change our password and logout of existing sessions ASAP after being made to do it, but our non-technical family members may not.

"Add TSA as a friend" is borderline reasonable, (pun intended) "give us your password" is not even close.

It also damages public awareness of importance of maintaining secure and private passwords more generally.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#294

Post by infinite8s »

graeme wrote: post #264
tptacek wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm traveling overseas this summer, and I don't plan on having my 1Password database handy when I reenter the country.

So you will be a position of " can't login to that site". How does that square with: "if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices confiscated, and then put on a flight out of the country." I guess they haven't yet started asking for social media passwords,…

Well, in tptacek's case, I believe he's a US citizen so they can't deny him entry.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#295

Post by aianus »

saiya-jin wrote: post #153
Turing_Machine wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Or, to simply stop traveling to countries that refuse to play nice with the rights of foreigners. " Which countries would those be? As far as I know, every country (or quasi-country, such as the EU) asserts the right to carry out a full inspection of anything crossing its border.

I went to countries like Iran, which US considers 'evil', and encountered nothing but politeness and smiles all around the country, including customs. I've been to US once, and the amount of paranoia and customs arrogance even in 2004 was staggering. I would be perfectly OK to not visit that place anymore, ever. Fiancee is not aware of these things yet, and she keeps mentioning US as a nice place for honeymoon. Well…

They don't even let you into Iran without making you perjure yourself into pretending to be religious. "Atheist" or "none" is not an option on the form and is grounds for deportation or execution (if you're Iranian and renounce Islam).

Iran's reputation for evil is well-deserved.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#296

Post by whatever_dude »

pc86 wrote: post #275
jacquesm wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that part of the reason here is a tit-for-tat. The USA has a long history of being nasty to Canadians on the suspicion of them going there to work. Similar things happening to US visitors to Brazil and several other places. Having a Dutch passport this never was a problem for me when returning to Canada, even though I was actually working there.

Entering Brazil as a US citizen was an interesting experience. Long pseudo-interrogation, fingerprinting, the whole nine yards. It wasn't until later I learned they basically just decided to do to all US citizens what the US was doing to Brazilians (and certainly others).

Brazil has a weird policy (the "reciprocity" law) that makes them apply to visitors from some countries whatever that country applies to visitors from Brazil. In theory that only applies to what kind of visas are necessary, but often they do so in terms of immigration/customs policy too.

So yeah, a while ago the US started requiring electronic fingerprints from Brazilian visitors (and everyone else I think?) so that's why Brazil started requiring that from US visitors.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#297

Post by venomsnake »

gkya wrote: post #289
venomsnake wrote: post #269

We barely stopped the last mostly male refugee wave at Vienna. For you islam may be just a religion but for EE it is dervishme, being second tier humans and the reason the renesaince in Eastern europe started 500 years later. If the refugees were vulnerable it is possible. But the majority of them are male. And some of them are draft doggers. If the Ukrainians start to run from Russia the reception will quite differe…

> If the Ukrainians start to run from Russia the reception will quite different - case in point - the armenias during the genocide. The whole western world sat and watched two decades of persecution that Armenians suffered which ended up becoming a genocide, even Russia who declared herself the protector of Ottoman Orthodox christians didn't move a finger. And those who managed to flee the country were not always wel…

They were definitely welcome in Bulgaria and the Balkans

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#298

Post by lap42 »

coldtea wrote: post #213
dave_sullivan wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. Asia and Eastern Europe are off the list for me too. China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over political tweets [2]; Russia can poison people [3], shoot them [4], or have them accused of fake crimes[5]. I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this and hope I see this trend reversed in my lifetime. But people should be aware that it can happen in a modern s…

> China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over political tweets [2]; Russia can poison people [3], shoot them [4], or have them accused of fake crimes[5]. I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this Well, the US can drone-kill people (including bystanders irrelevant to the primary non-tried target), abduct them from all over the world and transport them with no trial to Guant…

Obama, the president that estimulated racial fights, did not have too much respect for the law, for police officers, etc... So under Trump, a president that respects AND shows repect for policemen, expect stupid policemen having a much harder time than before.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#299

Post by thaumasiotes »

ekiru wrote: post #84
biscuitsandbbq wrote: post #38

This happened to me crossing into Canada and to be honest I really wasn't expecting it. I had tons of very private pictures and messages on there stretching back years. I really didn't want to turn over my password so that 3 border agents could look through all that stuff in some back room, but at the same time I knew there wasn't anything illegal on there. Anyway, I was with my partner and didn't want to ruin her va…

Recognizing when people are lying is an important part of CBP's job. They're trained specifically to do it. It's unlikely that you're better at lying than they are at noticing that you're lie. Lying to them will end poorly.

> Recognizing when people are lying is an important part of CBP's job. They're trained specifically to do it.

That's true. However, the evidence that people who are trained to recognize lying do any better at it than random people off the street is -- putting things mildly -- not strong.

If they notice you're lying, it will be because you contradicted something they already knew or because you were bad at lying, not because they were trained to recognize it.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#300

Post by deftturtle »

refurb wrote: post #139
danbruc wrote: post #85

How is this not in violation of international law, especially the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights [1] article 17, which would apply to US citizens as well as non-US citizens? No one shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to unlawful attacks on his honour and reputation. Maybe even article 9 if the law does not clearly establi…

No offense, but I don't put much weight on international law. In order for a law to have impact, someone has to enforce it. Who will enforce international laws? The UN?

Yes, any treaties or laws ratified by congress have the full legal weight as any national law. They must be upheld by our nation; otherwise, it's unconstitutional.
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