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What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

arstechnica.com

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Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#151

Post by pjc50 »

sporkenfang wrote: post #89
tptacek wrote: post #3

Worth remembering: US citizens can play chicken with CBP and lose nothing more than their computer/phone hardware (perhaps having it returned 6 months later). But non-citizens, possibly including LPRs, cannot: if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices con…

What if one doesn't have a Facebook and is unwilling to give up email for work/NDA reasons?

As above: You have to do what they say you have to do, or else [arbitrary consequences]. Your sensitive or proprietary information is not an obligation on them.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#152

Post by refurb »

transfire wrote: post #6

The idea that our constitutional rights end at the border is such a travesty, contrary to everything our forefathers fought for, that alone is worthy of renewed revolution.

contrary to everything our forefathers fought for

Ummm... the fact that you lose certain rights when crossing an international border came from the founding fathers. It's nothing new.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#153

Post by saiya-jin »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #99
jacquesm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The current best practice for border crossings --- really anywhere in the world --- is simply not to carry anything you're unwilling to unlock for Customs. Or, to simply stop traveling to countries that refuse to play nice with the rights of foreigners. The whole idea that this sort of thing is even anywhere near acceptable behavior revolts me.

"Or, to simply stop traveling to countries that refuse to play nice with the rights of foreigners. " Which countries would those be? As far as I know, every country (or quasi-country, such as the EU) asserts the right to carry out a full inspection of anything crossing its border.

I went to countries like Iran, which US considers 'evil', and encountered nothing but politeness and smiles all around the country, including customs.

I've been to US once, and the amount of paranoia and customs arrogance even in 2004 was staggering. I would be perfectly OK to not visit that place anymore, ever.

Fiancee is not aware of these things yet, and she keeps mentioning US as a nice place for honeymoon. Well we will vote with our feet and money and spend it somewhere where we are actually welcome. There is nothing really unique in US from touristic point of view anyway

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#154

Post by jrochkind1 »

ronnier wrote: post #143
jrochkind1 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had read about it on HN multiple times during the Obama administration too. As well as heard about it from the ACLU and EFF, as well as other places. A HN post from 2014, with 258 upvotes, linking to an ACLU notice from 2014. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6993995 That's just the first HN post I found, there were multiple other front-page HN posts over the past few years. An EFF alert from 2013: https://www.e…

Looks like I was wrong. Good thing to be wrong on.

If _you_ weren't paying attention to this issue until now, you'd have to ask yourself why not. :) Many of us have been.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#155

Post by pjc50 »

yawz wrote: post #138

The question I have in mind is "do they have the right to confiscate your device or to disappear with it?". What if I told them "I'm going to unlock it, but I'm the driver. Ask me all that you want to see, and I'll take you to that app?".

What if they told you "we're going to detain you until you do what we want?"

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#156

Post by M_Grey »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #120
M_Grey wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want to bet on that, with the Trump administration? I'll say an 'ave' for you.

I do, yes. I'm white, I've got some money (and family with more money; for lawyers, I mean), I'm a US citizen. That's within the level of risk I'm willing to take for standing up for freedom. We're not going to fight this stuff without being willing to take any risk at all. That's being a human, doing what's right involves some risk and sacrifice, almost always.

Well, thanks for being willing to take a bullet for the collective good, and I wish you the best of luck with it.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#157

Post by lb1lf »

mikeash wrote: post #101
lb1lf wrote: post #83

Question: what would happen if you are asked to unlock your device and you refuse on the grounds that it contains classified material? Presumably they wouldn't just shrug and say 'OK, then' - but neither could they (if the classifying authority was one they cared about - say, NATO) just say 'Tough luck, now unlock it!', right?

It seems like that would only work if you actually have the appropriate security clearance. And they're probably OK with letting people with clearances get through with less screening.

-You'd obviously need to be able to provide proof of your clearance* (though I suppose your passport and a database lookup would do) - but I wonder what would be the next step then; getting hold of an official with the required clearance to match the documents in your laptop? (Which, in the case of higher/compartmentalised clearances may not even be possible)

At some point you just need to start trusting people.

*) I wouldn't recommend leaving docs leaked by Ed Snowden on the laptop just to be able to rightfully claim there's classified material on it...

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#158

Post by pkituu »

MichaelGG wrote: post #50
toddmorey wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel any parent with a teenager who's tried to monitor her Facebook account can see where this is headed. This policy is incredibly ignorant of how online communities work and where communication is going. The only thing I can see happening is terrorism-minded individuals actually creating and maintaining clean Facebook profiles as a smokescreen. That's an easy win and great distraction as communication moves to no…

This isn't to catch terrorism. Though they'll probably get a few idiot "extremists", this will mostly stop people coming in under false pretenses. It's bizarre how people don't think ahead to their border crossing and are willing to admit they are going to live with their SO, or work as a nanny -- while under a tourism visa. It'll be very effective at this. Most people aren't going to establish a plausible social med…

You're right that this is not (primarily) about catching suspected criminals or people affiliated with terrorist organizations.

I wouldn't be surprised if they had an internal profiling tool that they run similar to https://applymagicsauce.com/.

Kind of similar to what Cambridge Analytica (https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/how-our-likes-hel...) uses to target political campaigns.

You know, the Cambridge Analytica whose board of trustees includes Steve Bannon.

So the question to be asking is why does the US government want a psychological profile of every traveller passing through the border?

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#159

Post by haswell »

mirimir wrote: post #36
intopieces wrote: post #5

Is it worth it to clear those devices and restore from cloud backup after crossing?

No. First, as others noted, it creates suspicion. Second, you can't trust devices after authorities have messed with them. Maybe they're backdoored. Best option is to carry only inexpensive devices, containing no sensitive information. If they're searched, just throw them away later.

Easier said than done if you travel regularly. Work takes me on the road a few dozen times/year. Not all of that travel is international, but I do rely on having easy access to my personal devices to maintain sanity with that lifestyle.

Even cheap throwaway devices become expensive over time.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#160

Post by bflesch »

danbruc wrote: post #135
bflesch wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If software identifies you as potential criminal or terrorist at the border, the following search is not "arbitrary" by any means. The state should not be transparent about the exact reasons why you were chosen (e.g. the social media post or phone call), apart from pointing out the law based on which they are acting.

Only if the software or procedures do a reasonable job at selecting people. It is hard to tell from the outside whether this is the case but the cases that became publicly known at least suggest that the system is not flawless and also seems to pick people with opinions or doing things the US disapproves but which are not illegal. How much information must be provided is certainly debatable. Article 9 continues as fo…

I am astonished by your entitlement. The state has no obligation to tell you about the inner workings of their selection / profiling process. All that counts is safety of its citizens.

If I'm not a citizen and representatives of the country I want to enter tell me that they think I am a risk, the systems actually works.

Of all these one-sided stories we are hearing one wonders about what kind of darknet "activism" some people are involved.

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