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Google’s not-so-secret new OS

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Re: Google’s not-so-secret new OS

#481
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So were Java Applets with AWT. Users hated that, so Sun tried PLAF, a half-assed emulation of each platform. That didn't work either, so Applets died. If Chrome manages to provide better versions of most applications on most platforms, it may win. Otherwise, people who use those applications will hate it with the heat of a thousand Suns, and it will go the way of the Java Applet.

> So were Java Applets with AWT. Users hated that, so Sun tried PLAF Uh, Java AWT was the native toolkit. Swing was the non native UI with the ugly METAL default Look and Feel. There are some nice custom Look and Feel implementations that don't try to emulate a platform, I think Matlab uses one for its UI.

And the Metal plaf was the least ugly of the three that were originally shipped with JVM (other two tried to match how AWT would look on Windows and Unix). But IIRC, AWT was not native (in the sense of "calls native OS GUI components") but only tried to look native and failed horribly at achieving that.

One thing that strikes me as weird is that almost any widget set that does it's own drawing or even just it's own automatic layout and tries to match look and feel of native UI invariably does not match even the basic look because various UI components use wrong size, are placed slightly differently and so on. For example everything I've ever seen that tried to match how windows 3.1 Ctrl3D looked draws window decorations one pixel narrower than the original, which is plainly visible and ugly, similarly things that attempt "looking like Motif" usually use different thickness for various lines and borders and also often mix-up meaning of focus rectangle (which should move by tab) and bevel around default button (which should stay in the same place irrespective of which control has focus). I see no technical reason why either of these things cannot be done right, is there some legal reason for introducing such small differences, that are small, but big enough to be annoying?

Re: Google’s not-so-secret new OS

#482
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give me a break. It's just as accurate to say "Dart is an open standard, Javascript is owned by Mozilla". There may be valid technical, pragmatic or moral reasons to prefer Javascript, but this is just FUD. (See http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecm... )

Really? Google's once rosy history with open source project isn't looking too friendly these days. And yeah ECMA is a totally open standard with committee members from all sorts of companies and backgrounds. Dart is not. I don't care if JS is slightly worse, as least I know that for now and the foreseeable future I won't be paying a google tax to use it. After the open source community "stole" mapreduce and hbase goo…

Spanner is as much about Google's data center, hardware and network architecture as it is about the code.

It is not clear how they would "contribute" that to OSS

Re: Google’s not-so-secret new OS

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could have written it in Rust. No garbage collection, more security guaranties. Easier to contribute to the code properly.

Rust performed 3x slower and hacking around the language made it somewhat of a mess [1]. Much like Singularity, this is hardly a success story. Although Singularity was interesting from a research perspective nobody doubted that an OS could be written in Rust. https://scialex.github.io/reenix.pdf

That paper is very old, before Rust 1.0. There was also a lot of discussions about ways that they could have used Rust better at the time, IIRC.

Today, there is no reason Rust should ever be 3x slower, especially in an OSdev context, where you currently have to use nightly.

Re: Google’s not-so-secret new OS

#484
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think it is way ahead of the JS/TS stack in many regards. In what ways do you consider it ahead of Typescript? Personally as someone who's particularly fond of static type systems (Haskell and the like), Typescript's type system seems way more advanced and powerful than Dart's (union and intersection types, in particular, and non-nullable types). Map types (introduced in Typescript 2.1) also seem pretty interestin…

Some of my earlier notes are in this thread (it is more about the day-to-day feature I actually use and like, and less about the fine details of the type system) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13371009 Personally I don't get the hype around union types: at the point where you need to check which type you are working with, you may as well use a generic object (and maybe an assert if you are pedantic). Intersecti…

So Dart hasn't really incorporated any lessons from 20 years of Java, has it? Google's answer to Tony Hoare's billion-dollar mistake is... "The Elvis operator"?

Re: Google’s not-so-secret new OS

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java should have focused on manipulating the DOM rather than creating their own canvas. Was not obvious at the time though.

Java did have an API for accessing and manipulating the DOM since (iirc) JDK1.4 -- org.w3c.dom and sub-packages. It was not at all well known or publicised, though.

Yep, this is what I was referring to. It would have been really interesting had people started doing things with it.

Re: Google’s not-so-secret new OS

#486

> IDEs written in Java are wildly slow… My favourite IDE to use today is IntelliJ, and I prefer it over my experience with Visual Studio (though to be fair, I did not use VS intensively in the past 3-4 years). I don't experience IntelliJ as "slow". It launches faster than VS did when I used it, and once it is running I keep it open pretty much the entire work-week without any issues.

There are steps in the Android tool chain build process that are slow (i.e. much slower than pure Java build) but IntelliJ/AS platform IDE is plenty fast on my (admittedly top-of-the-line) 2012 MacBook Pro.

Re: Google’s not-so-secret new OS

#487

> IDEs written in Java are wildly slow… My favourite IDE to use today is IntelliJ, and I prefer it over my experience with Visual Studio (though to be fair, I did not use VS intensively in the past 3-4 years). I don't experience IntelliJ as "slow". It launches faster than VS did when I used it, and once it is running I keep it open pretty much the entire work-week without any issues.

[deleted]

Re: Google’s not-so-secret new OS

#488
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give me a break. It's just as accurate to say "Dart is an open standard, Javascript is owned by Mozilla". There may be valid technical, pragmatic or moral reasons to prefer Javascript, but this is just FUD. (See http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecm... )

Really? Google's once rosy history with open source project isn't looking too friendly these days. And yeah ECMA is a totally open standard with committee members from all sorts of companies and backgrounds. Dart is not. I don't care if JS is slightly worse, as least I know that for now and the foreseeable future I won't be paying a google tax to use it. After the open source community "stole" mapreduce and hbase goo…

> Did I mention they removed "don't be evil" as their motto a while back because it was "immature"?

https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct.html

"Don't be evil" is the first and last thing stated.

Why do you post stuff that's trivially searchable and trivially called out as bullshit? Why would I bother reading any of your rant if you can't get trivial details right?

Re: Google’s not-so-secret new OS

#489
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that it's Google, I wonder if it will support the languages favored by bootstrappers and small startups—Obj C, Ruby, JavaScript and more recently Swift and Elixir. I get the distinct impression that they're heavily optimizing large team productivity and aren't a fan of functional or highly expressive languages. It's too bad, given how much nicer their app approval process, etc is than Apple's that the Android d…

Well going off common sense, it seems likely that Obj C and Swift definitely would not be supported on purpose.

How is that common sense? Both are open source and Google is happy to lure iOS devs, presumably.

Re: Google’s not-so-secret new OS

#490
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is either fantastic satire or hopelessly optimistic. What you are describing is a human level artificial general intelligence. Probably more than 10 years out.

Not really, for simple apps you can use what we already have in place with some meta-programming rules prepared by humans (currently only a few companies posses this capability though). You can use ML like deep learning variations to learn association between your wishes and corresponding code blocks. Initially apps like that would be simple, i.e. "make a web page", done, "change background color to pink gradient", d…

Drag and drop website building is a monumentally easier challenge and hasn't obsoleted programming.
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