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Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

cloudplatform.googleblog.com

361–370 of 456 posts

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The movement from ownership to renting on the web is absolutely terrifying to me. Within the span of a few years we've gone from owning our technology to renting it out from a big players for monthly fees that we cannot completely predict or control. The advantages of owning your own hardware will never go away, but soon this will be made quite intentionally impossible as the big players coalesce and continue buildin…

> One day running your own servers will be like running your own ISP . Massively impractical because the free market has been manipulated to the point that it effectively no longer exists What? People use cloud computing because it already is massively impractical to run your own servers . Hardware is hard to run and scale on your own and experiences economies of scale. This principle is seen everywhere and can hardl…

Have you run your own servers in a colo? I've done it myself.

One person, with maybe 3 hours a week of time investment after a few weeks of setup and hardware purchase. Using containers I can move between the cloud and my own servers seamlessly, and long as I never bite the golden apple and use any of the cloud's walled garden "services" like S3. If I need more power I can spin up some temporary servers at any cloud provider in a few hours. For me the cloud is a nice thing because I don't use too much of it. If AWS disappeared tomorrow it would be a mild inconvenience, not devestating like it would be to many newer unicorns.

Go ahead and try to use the cloud you're paying for as a CDN or DDoS sheild, or anything amounting to a bastion of free speech. You'll quickly find out that your cloud provider doesn't like you to use all the bandwidth and CPU you pay for, and they don't like running your servers when they disagree with your views. They quietly overprovision everything pulling the same crap as consumer ISPs where they sell you a 100mbps line and punish you if you use more than 10 of that on average. That's the main reason the cloud is so cheap.

Hardware is cheap, colo's are cheap, software is largely easy to manage. The economy of scale they enjoy is from vendor lock-in and overprovisioning more than anything else.

Is it really that hard to double the amount of servers you own every few weeks? No! If you're using containers or managed KVM you can mirror nodes basically for free over the network as soon as the Ethernet is plugged in. Your time amounts to what it takes to put the thing in a rack, plug in the Ethernet, and hit the "on" button. Everybody in SV land thinks you have to use cloud to "scale massively" but they forget that all of today's technology behemoths were built years ago when the cloud didn't exist. Oh yeah, they all still run all of their own hardware too and have from the early days. Using their model as a template, you should own every single server you use and start selling your excess capacity once you get big enough.

Did you ever read about how Netflix tried to run their own hardware but can't because they have so much data in AWS that it would basically bankrupt them to extract it? Look at how these cost models work. Usually inbound bandwidth is extremely cheap or free but outbound is massively more expensive than a dedicated line at a datacenter, 50-100 times the cost if you're saturating that line 24/7. The removal fees from a managed store like S3 or glacier are even more ludicrous. The cloud is like crack and as soon as you start using it more than a few times a year you will get locked in and unable to leave without spending massive $$$. Usually companies figure out this shell game once they're large enough, but by then it's far too late to do anything about it.

Why are they marketing these things so heavily to startups? Because lock in is how they make their money. They make little or nothing on pure compute power, but since you don't have low level hardware access they can charge whatever the hell they want for things like extra IP's, DDoS protection, DC to DC peering, load balancing, auto scaling. You give massive discounts to new players using these systems and inevitably some of these will become the next Uber or Netflix. Then you are free to charge whatever exhoribitant rates you please once it's so impractical to move that it would require a major redesign of the business.

I see it a lot like franchising. By building on Amazon's cloud services you become "Uber company brought to you by Amazon". Like franchising, your upside is limited because any owner with a significant share of total franchises will begin to put pressure on the service owner itself.

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#362
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google has to support Google, Youtube and many of the most resources intensive services in existence on Earth. They needed to be "efficient enough" to operate that, meaning incredibly efficient. Amazon runs nothing, it's an outsourcing firm. They needed to make services "good enough" to be sold. If a service is somewhat inefficient, it just charges the clients more to cover the costs. Technologies reflect the busines…

You do realize the way most services get into AWS is that they're first built in the retail side of Amazon (without any thought towards AWS) and then once people realize it's effectively solving an actual problem, it's rebuilt for AWS. Having to support Amazon retail is a pretty demanding stress test -- I'm not sure why you're getting this notion that Amazon doesn't run anything. I should think handling Black Friday…

No one is saying amazon doesn't test their stuff. The argument here is that Google is inherently a more technical company, which is a fair comparison. Their products are more technical. Ad Sense, Gmail, YouTube are incredibly technical products due to their scale, and the argument here is that nothing of similar technicality exists in Amazon's core business, which I think is totally fair.

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>well that would be a lot of choice for the developers! A sad choice though. The centralization of computation is likely not a good thing in the long run.

The movement from ownership to renting on the web is absolutely terrifying to me. Within the span of a few years we've gone from owning our technology to renting it out from a big players for monthly fees that we cannot completely predict or control. The advantages of owning your own hardware will never go away, but soon this will be made quite intentionally impossible as the big players coalesce and continue buildin…

You did not ever own your own globally consistent, massively scalable, replicated database. The fact that you can now rent one by the hour is strictly an improvement for you, if you need that kind of thing.

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The movement from ownership to renting on the web is absolutely terrifying to me. Within the span of a few years we've gone from owning our technology to renting it out from a big players for monthly fees that we cannot completely predict or control. The advantages of owning your own hardware will never go away, but soon this will be made quite intentionally impossible as the big players coalesce and continue buildin…

You did not ever own your own globally consistent, massively scalable, replicated database. The fact that you can now rent one by the hour is strictly an improvement for you, if you need that kind of thing.

Cassandra also does that without requiring the "magic" of a system you can only get from a single vendor and never buy. At the same time these walled gardens have come up free software has grown to fill the gaps

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really like your attitude towards something like this, when your product would be an overkill for a use case and you just recommend a different product. I also really like your blog posts about Postgres, we use it a lot for developers explaining a bunch of internals, like the one with how to paginate in Postgres.

Link to blog post?

I believe this is the one they're referring to on pagination: https://www.citusdata.com/blog/2016/03/30/five-ways-to-pagin...

Though hopefully you'll find many more useful ones about Citus and Postgres broadly on our blog: https://www.citusdata.com/blog/

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did not ever own your own globally consistent, massively scalable, replicated database. The fact that you can now rent one by the hour is strictly an improvement for you, if you need that kind of thing.

Cassandra also does that without requiring the "magic" of a system you can only get from a single vendor and never buy. At the same time these walled gardens have come up free software has grown to fill the gaps

Cassandra is sort of a Bigtable without transactions. It is not comparable to Spanner at all.

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a bit of a veteran in the database industry, I concur (at least about the impact on Oracle's database business). There is a lot of pent-up demand for anything that offers distributed consistency. We've been seeing this demand at Fauna. FaunaDB offers distributed consistency, based on Raft and the Calvin protocol instead of depending on specific networking and clock hardware. We've seen a big part of our appeal is…

Wait, Fauna uses the Calvin protocol? Would you mind linking a white paper? I didn't realize it was in use outside Calvin/CalvinFS.

We have kept it under wraps. The whitepaper will be ready next month most likely.

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#368
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aspiring hackers couldn't tinker with MS Word 2000 code either. They could tinker with the binaries, something many did with game binaries. But your point is well taken; open source is also very valuable to innovation.

Web apps were also very useful for learning JS and browser APIs, before everybody started minimizing and obfuscating it. I learned how to write a rich-text editor just by looking at the code of Hotmail's email editor.

Fair enough, but think of that free and open stack: (layer 1), Ethernet, IP, TCP/UDP, HTTP/SMTP/DNS/etc, HTML/JavaScript. How many cut their teeth on those?

The apps on top, Facebook, Snapchat, etc., are not so open and much of what they do is out of reach from the user.

Also, I meant to add above: People could tinker with data files (e.g., Word docs), configurations, etc. The whole system was local and accessible. You could write local code, such as VB or for Windows, that integrated with those systems.

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cassandra also does that without requiring the "magic" of a system you can only get from a single vendor and never buy. At the same time these walled gardens have come up free software has grown to fill the gaps

Cassandra is sort of a Bigtable without transactions. It is not comparable to Spanner at all.

Spanner is unique in a lot of ways, but it still trades off consistency for speed.

The most unique thing about spanner is the use of globally synchronized clock timestamps to guarantee "comes before" consistency without the need to actually synchronize everything.

There is nothing stopping startups and open source developers from building the same thing in a few years. The missing ingredient is highly stable GPS and local time sources which will hopefully be available on cloud instances sometime soon. This is a new piece of hardware so it will be interesting to see if cloud providers make one available or use the opportunity to sell their own branded "service" version you can't buy. Unfortunately I think we'll see the latter far before the former, it it ever even exists. Without a highly stable timesource doing what spanner does will be completely impossible.

Yes spanner is special right now but that's even more reason to not go near it. Google has a complete monopoly on it, the strongest vendor lock in you can possibly have

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Helpful feedback, we do have a development plan for $99, but it's not really intended for production workloads. If you only have 10 GB of data we'd heavily recommend going with something like RDS or Heroku Postgres. At that amount of data single node Postgres works great.

RDS is not single node - its multi-AZ replicated. And that's what we are paying 300$ instead of 99$ for. Imagine.. RDS is literally the ONLY place where you can buy a 10 GB data multi-AZ replicated, snapshotted and managed postgresql. Its pretty much a monopoly, now that Google seems to have officially closed the book on ever supporting postgresql.

There are several managed hosting companies that will run Postgres (and other databases) for you on public clouds. Compose, Aiven, ElephantSQL, Database Labs, Heroku, etc. There are all kinds of price points and GCP is working on supporting postgres internally.

How many nodes are you looking to run for $300/month? Unless you have more than 150gb/node of data, you don't really need a distributed database which is what Citus is for.

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