Live data from Hacker News

Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

cloudplatform.googleblog.com

351–360 of 456 posts

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#351

Congratulations to the Spanner team for becoming part of the Google public cloud! And for those wondering, this is why Oracle wants billions of dollars from Google for "Java Copyright Infringement" because the only growth market for Oracle right now is their hosted database service, and whoops Google has a better one now. It will be interesting if Amazon and Microsoft choose to compete with Google on this service. If…

>well that would be a lot of choice for the developers! A sad choice though. The centralization of computation is likely not a good thing in the long run.

The movement from ownership to renting on the web is absolutely terrifying to me. Within the span of a few years we've gone from owning our technology to renting it out from a big players for monthly fees that we cannot completely predict or control.

The advantages of owning your own hardware will never go away, but soon this will be made quite intentionally impossible as the big players coalesce and continue building their walled gardens.

This is already happening. All the big players own their hardware and rent it out to everyone else, while trying to convince everyone it's not worth owning your own hardware at the same time.

These companies have already begun closing off server platforms by developing custom hardware and software systems that cannot be bought for any price, only rented. These systems represent a new breed of technology with unbreakable vendor lock in.

Theses same companies compete with each other and countless other companies across the space. Take for example a start-up that wants to run their own app store. Google, Amazon, and Microsoft all run app stores. Where will this company go for cloud services? Their only big name options are to host their software on the hardware of a direct competitor. Their host has full visibility on how their system works, and control over the pricing and reliability of their machines.

It's laughable to think their "cloud partner" will give them any chance to compete if they enter the same market.

We've seen UEFI BIOS and un-unlockable mobiles enter the market in droves the last few years. A lot of new PC's can't run anything except windows. A lot of new phones can only run the carrier's version of android. We have all these general purpose CPUs that can no longer run general purpose programs because "security", and a lot of lobbyist pushing to make it actually illegal to run your own software on these with "anti tampering" laws, again for "security" . Soon the big guys (same companies, MS and Google) will make it impossible to run your own software on any reasonably inexpensive devices and the walled market will be complete.

Mark my words, I've never seen an industry with a couple big players where growth and innovation doesn't eventually turn into collusion, higher prices, and market stagnation. Once MS, Google and Amazon have their slice of the pie and they've killed off everyone else, we will see the death of general purpose computers and mobile devices. Everything you buy will be "android computer" "windows computer" and "apple computer". Anything general purpose will be massively more expensive because individual companies can't get the kind of volume discount of the giant behemoths that increasingly control large swaths of the world's computing power. We've already seen the endgame, with Amazon trialing an "on premesis" version of their compute platform which is basically a super locked down server that you can't buy, only rent endlessly. The future of on premesis will be a cloud in a black box if these companies have anything to do with it. Why? Because once they've got you locked in it makes no sense to sell you anything for keeps. Why keep improving their product so you buy the new version when they can just make it incompatible with everything else and force you to rent it forever, for whatever price they feel like charging?

One day running your own servers will be like running your own ISP . Massively impractical because the free market has been manipulated to the point that it effectively no longer exists

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#352
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would phrase it as: AWS prioritizes building blocks that support very high throughput and avoid leaky abstractions at all costs, and they're happy to push forward as long as these criteria are met. IMO they really succeed at this goal. Minus specific bugs that they're generally good about acknowledging, their services reliably do what they say they're going to. And they definitely solve a lot of problems for you, e…

I would probably compare Dynamo to Google Datastore (released.. 8 years earlier?), or even to Bigtable, which went GA last summer. I'm not sure Spanner matches up with anything AWS at this point. (work on google Cloud)

I think aurora is the closest.

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Helpful feedback, we do have a development plan for $99, but it's not really intended for production workloads. If you only have 10 GB of data we'd heavily recommend going with something like RDS or Heroku Postgres. At that amount of data single node Postgres works great.

I really like your attitude towards something like this, when your product would be an overkill for a use case and you just recommend a different product. I also really like your blog posts about Postgres, we use it a lot for developers explaining a bunch of internals, like the one with how to paginate in Postgres.

Link to blog post?

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#354

Congratulations to the Spanner team for becoming part of the Google public cloud! And for those wondering, this is why Oracle wants billions of dollars from Google for "Java Copyright Infringement" because the only growth market for Oracle right now is their hosted database service, and whoops Google has a better one now. It will be interesting if Amazon and Microsoft choose to compete with Google on this service. If…

Well the product manager is from Oracle.

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>well that would be a lot of choice for the developers! A sad choice though. The centralization of computation is likely not a good thing in the long run.

The movement from ownership to renting on the web is absolutely terrifying to me. Within the span of a few years we've gone from owning our technology to renting it out from a big players for monthly fees that we cannot completely predict or control. The advantages of owning your own hardware will never go away, but soon this will be made quite intentionally impossible as the big players coalesce and continue buildin…

> One day running your own servers will be like running your own ISP . Massively impractical because the free market has been manipulated to the point that it effectively no longer exists

What? People use cloud computing because it already is massively impractical to run your own servers. Hardware is hard to run and scale on your own and experiences economies of scale. This principle is seen everywhere and can hardly be viewed as something controversial. Walmart for instance can sell things at a really low price because of the sheer volume of their sales. Similarly, data centers also experience economies of scale.

As someone who cares about offering the best possible, reliable user experience, cloud computing is absolutely the next logical step from bare metal on-prem servers. When your system experiences load outside the constraints of what it can handle, a properly designed app that has independently scaling microservices horizontally scales.

Even if you had the state of the art microservice architecture running on a kubernetes cluster on your own hardware, you still wouldn't be able to source disk/CPU fast enough if your service happens to experience loads beyond what you provisioned.

And there is the rub, buying your own hardware costs money, and no one wants to buy hardware they may not ever use. Another advantage of cloud computing.

You are seeing the peak of free market right now, because of cloud computing, which enables people with little upfront cash to invest to form real internet businesses and scale massively.

You think a game like Pokemon Go can exists and do the release they did without cloud computing?

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#356
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I'm understanding you, with Aurora all writes go to one master and you're constrained by the biggest instance AWS offers. Is that right? Do you have a sense of what that limit is? There's a pretty big price difference between Spanner and Aurora at the entry level so it's useful to explore this.

> Do you have a sense of what that limit is? Per their pricing page[1] it looks like the largest instance available is a "db.r3.8xlarge", which is a special naming of the "r3.8xlarge" instance type[2] which is 32 cpus and 244gb of memory. That's a hell of a lot of capacity to exhaust, especially if you're using read replicas to reduce it to only/mostly write workloads. Obviously it's possible to use more than this, b…

I disagree, the "sheer scale" argument is not flat. The fact that one can scale horizontally and the other can't is significant.

Let me present a quote to you: 512 kb ram ought to be enough for everybody

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#357

This release shows the different philosophies of Google vs Amazon in an interesting way. Google prefers building advanced systems that let you do things "the old way" but making them horizontally scalable. Amazon prefers to acknowledge that network partitions exist and try to get you to do things "the new way" that deals with that failure case in the software instead of trying to hide it. I'm not saying either system…

Spanner doesn't use SQL for writes it seems, so its still a significant rewrite for legacy applications (especially ones that dont use an ORM).

The thing thats really different here is Google are basically saying, heres this awesome system, yes it has obvious risks from partitioning, we are going to stake our reputation on those partitions not happening.

In contrast AWS are saying, this is DynamoDb, its really limiting but because of those limitations it should be pretty reliable as long as you write your application correctly.

It will be interesting to see if Microsoft and Amazon have to follow Google's lead here.

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#358
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious: is there any company in the world that could replicate its breadth, performance, and reliability in the next decade? Could any government? Has any government? My impression is that, infrastructure wise, Google is genuinely in a class of size one.

Its probably a class size of 2, with Amazon. Beyond those two though, no one else is close.

Ever heard of Facebook ? :)

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#359

Congratulations to the Spanner team for becoming part of the Google public cloud! And for those wondering, this is why Oracle wants billions of dollars from Google for "Java Copyright Infringement" because the only growth market for Oracle right now is their hosted database service, and whoops Google has a better one now. It will be interesting if Amazon and Microsoft choose to compete with Google on this service. If…

As a bit of a veteran in the database industry, I concur (at least about the impact on Oracle's database business). There is a lot of pent-up demand for anything that offers distributed consistency. We've been seeing this demand at Fauna. FaunaDB offers distributed consistency, based on Raft and the Calvin protocol instead of depending on specific networking and clock hardware. We've seen a big part of our appeal is…

Wait, Fauna uses the Calvin protocol? Would you mind linking a white paper? I didn't realize it was in use outside Calvin/CalvinFS.

Re: Introducing Cloud Spanner, a Global Database Service

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon: Create usual services and sell them. Google: Make unique products that push the boundaries of what was previously thought possible. Amazon: Don't care about inefficiencies and usage. Inefficiencies can be handled by charging more to the clients, usage doesn't matter because the users are mostly the clients and they don't feel their pain. Google: Had to make all their core technologies efficient, performant, s…

Not fair. Amazon: IaaS Google: PaaS Amazon is philosophy is being 'close to the metal' to allow Enterprise customer to migrate 'regular apps' into a 'regular environment' in the cloud. Most of Google's offerings are (at least were) novel, but proprietary ways of doing specific things. Amazon is not a laggard: they have provided a number of interesting and useful 'helper' things to facilitate IaaS - as well as a numbe…

Google is IaaS, their PaaS offering (App Engine) never gained much traction AFAIK. I also find the comparison fair, Google is a software engineering company, Amazon is a sales/marketing company.
Post reply on HN