A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them • Hacker News Board

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#111

Post by rhcom2 » Tue, Feb 14, 2017, 5:09 PM UTC

antisthenes wrote: post #104

I'm really surprised to see so many from the HN audience against scalpers, considering how libertarian the site leans. If there's any market where a completely free market approach is applicable and actually desirable, it's this one. I've bought maybe 40-50 tickets for various events (gaming, concerts, sports) over the last 5 years, and 99% of the time, the price of the ticket was negligible next to all the other exp…

> People without money get screwed out of entertainment? Boo Hoo. How about Healthcare or housing? You know, actual essential things.

These things aren't mutually exclusive. I think most people would think it is unfair if only people who can pay 2-4x the ticket price are able to see an event. Hell scalping for more than the original price isn't even legal some places.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#112

Post by conjectures » Tue, Feb 14, 2017, 5:10 PM UTC

illvm wrote: post #109

antisthenes wrote: post #104

I'm really surprised to see so many from the HN audience against scalpers, considering how libertarian the site leans. If there's any market where a completely free market approach is applicable and actually desirable, it's this one. I've bought maybe 40-50 tickets for various events (gaming, concerts, sports) over the last 5 years, and 99% of the time, the price of the ticket was negligible next to all the other exp…

Look, if the box office said "we're auctioning off all the tickets, there is no set price" then I would be inclined to agree with you. But that's not what happens here. Scalping with bots is someone profiting off of the work of others. It's borderline theft. Moreover, it's already illegal in many states and further widens the chasm between the rich and the poor. I don't understand why you would defend such practice.

What cheeses me off is that the artists aren't making that money. Under an auction system more of the money would go into artists' pockets rather than scalpers - which is surely something hardcore fans would want.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#113

Post by ue_ » Tue, Feb 14, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #107

antisthenes wrote: post #104

I'm really surprised to see so many from the HN audience against scalpers, considering how libertarian the site leans. If there's any market where a completely free market approach is applicable and actually desirable, it's this one. I've bought maybe 40-50 tickets for various events (gaming, concerts, sports) over the last 5 years, and 99% of the time, the price of the ticket was negligible next to all the other exp…

You're logically and economically correct, but people have a visceral negative emotional reaction to arbitrageurs since they didn't do anything to "earn" their profits. The only way to eliminate scalping would be for the original sellers to raise prices to match the clearing price (perhaps with auctions) but the optics on that are also bad since artists don't like to seem too greedy.

>but people have a visceral negative reaction to arbitrageurs since they didn't do anything to "earn" their profits

I don't think there's anything wrong with getting money that you didn't earn (so long as you're not exploiting people, as the bourgeoisie do); I do think there is something ethically questionable about forcing (I use the word 'forcing' to refer to the idea that within the confines of show-going, it is the only available choice) people to pay 3x more for something out of greed.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#114

Post by allenz » Tue, Feb 14, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

laurencei wrote: post #4

tyingq wrote: post #2

"Wiseguy learned that Ticketmaster's CAPTCHA system had only loaded 30,000 unique images into its database, rather than millions. So Lowson's team downloaded every image they could find as a .jpeg file, stayed up all night typing them out, and taught their bot how to match the images." Wow. I had the impression Ticketmaster had invested a lot of thought into anti bot tech. Apparently not.

What is more interesting about that statement is how did he learn that fact? Possibly some help from the inside? Or some other method...?

The files could have been numbered consecutively.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#115

Post by saosebastiao » Tue, Feb 14, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

ue_ wrote: post #110

antisthenes wrote: post #104

I'm really surprised to see so many from the HN audience against scalpers, considering how libertarian the site leans. If there's any market where a completely free market approach is applicable and actually desirable, it's this one. I've bought maybe 40-50 tickets for various events (gaming, concerts, sports) over the last 5 years, and 99% of the time, the price of the ticket was negligible next to all the other exp…

>Even at 2-3x price, the price of the ticket is a relatively small portion of the total cost of attending. This is irrelevant. The fact is that it's 2-3x the cost because someone decided to be greedy and purchase lots of tickets that people would have bought. Imagine if you go to buy a bar of chocolate, and it's $1 as it usually is. Then one day you've found out that the only way to buy it is from the weird guy outsi…

> So you think it's okay for someone to do something bad, so long as it's trivial and not related to one's bare survival?

If buying low and selling high is so bad that it should be outlawed, you can kiss everything you know goodbye.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#116

Post by 1024core » Tue, Feb 14, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

laurencei wrote: post #4

tyingq wrote: post #2

"Wiseguy learned that Ticketmaster's CAPTCHA system had only loaded 30,000 unique images into its database, rather than millions. So Lowson's team downloaded every image they could find as a .jpeg file, stayed up all night typing them out, and taught their bot how to match the images." Wow. I had the impression Ticketmaster had invested a lot of thought into anti bot tech. Apparently not.

What is more interesting about that statement is how did he learn that fact? Possibly some help from the inside? Or some other method...?

If they had just scraped ~205 images, they would have a > 50% chance of getting a repeat.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#117

Post by the_watcher » Tue, Feb 14, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

Not directly related, but my dad used to take people to major tennis tournaments through a company he started. Many times, those who'd purchased tickets for the entire tournament didn't want to go to every match, so they'd ask him if they could sell him back individual tickets, happily taking face value. My dad, who speaks several languages, was nearly always able to move the tickets for far more than face value, and has told me many a story about getting to know professional scalpers across Europe. Every time I read a story about scalping it reminds me of him.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#118

Post by 1024core » Tue, Feb 14, 2017, 5:14 PM UTC

> The government's case hinged mostly on whether Wiseguy had "circumvented" Ticketmaster's system.

While I hate scalpers, I have to ask: why is this illegal? Is using a screen reader "circumventing the system" if I get rid of all font and graphics? Is using an adblocker "circumventing the system" ?

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#119

Post by vkou » Tue, Feb 14, 2017, 5:15 PM UTC

ikeboy wrote: post #105

mrob wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bigger venues have different acoustics. Not all music genres are suited to big venues.

Then do more shows in the same place until demand is met.

But when everyone and their dog can attend, as opposed to just the , the event stops being exclusive. What's the point of going, then?

Sure, it's exclusive when tickets are only available at high prices, but surely, you understand that to be the wrong kind of exclusive!

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#120

Post by alex_duf » Tue, Feb 14, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #3

> "There's an emotional aspect to what artists do, which is to say 'I'm not willing to charge $500 even though clearly the market value is $500. I'm going to charge $100, and at the end of the day someone else is going to make that money,'" The bots are just a symptom. Seems like this is likely the root of the problem. If the primary market was efficient, then there would be no secondary market, and the whole point o…

But an efficient primary market disconnects you from your fans by advantaging richer customers.

Probably not the best way to get the crowd that actually care about your music.