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For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

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Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#31

Post by mountainethos »

Animats wrote: post #8

That's because there's not much load in that area. America's best wind power belt is north from the Texas panhandle up to Canada.[1] But there are no big cities in that region. The US thus needs more long DC power lines. The technology is already in use in China. The Zhundong-Sichuan power line goes 2600km. It's a DC line at 1.1 megavolts carrying 10 gigawatts. That technology could easily carry power from the wind b…

Don't diminish this achievement by claiming it's a low populated area. The Midwest alone accounts for 1/5 of the population of the U.S. [1].

1. https://www.census.gov/popclock/data_tables.php?component=gr...

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#32

Post by screwston »

mountainethos wrote: post #31
Animats wrote: post #8

That's because there's not much load in that area. America's best wind power belt is north from the Texas panhandle up to Canada.[1] But there are no big cities in that region. The US thus needs more long DC power lines. The technology is already in use in China. The Zhundong-Sichuan power line goes 2600km. It's a DC line at 1.1 megavolts carrying 10 gigawatts. That technology could easily carry power from the wind b…

Don't diminish this achievement by claiming it's a low populated area. The Midwest alone accounts for 1/5 of the population of the U.S. [1]. 1. https://www.census.gov/popclock/data_tables.php?component=gr...

The Midwest has many large cities.

But the Midwest does not completely overlap the wind belt. The more densely populated parts of the Midwest are especially far away.

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#33

Post by mountainethos »

screwston wrote: post #32
mountainethos wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't diminish this achievement by claiming it's a low populated area. The Midwest alone accounts for 1/5 of the population of the U.S. [1]. 1. https://www.census.gov/popclock/data_tables.php?component=gr...

The Midwest has many large cities. But the Midwest does not completely overlap the wind belt. The more densely populated parts of the Midwest are especially far away.

Right, and places like Texas, Colorado, Oklahoma, and Montana are not included in the Midwest. The point isn't that the wind belt region makes up exactly 1/5 of the population, but that there are many people there that shouldn't be dismissed because they aren't in the most densely populated cities.

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#34

Post by pjc50 »

ianlevesque wrote: post #29
rodionos wrote: post #22

The runaway favorite in wind energy is Denmark, where wind turbines, predominantly offshore-based, produced 44% of the total energy production in 2016. https://apps.axibase.com/slider/energinet-2016/?slide=2 However, wind energy production is remarkably volatile with the minimum and maximum average hourly production per day being two orders of magnitude apart: 912.7 MWh (min) vs 102.6 GWh (max). https://apps.axibase.…

Yeah that sounds like the perfect mix of generation technologies. Only thing missing is pumped hydro storage for some of those GWh days.

Pumped hydro requires very specific geography to make it viable, which is why it's present in so few places. That's why so many people are investigating other storage systems: batteries, compressed air, flywheels, etc.

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#35

Post by knz »

screwston wrote: post #32
mountainethos wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't diminish this achievement by claiming it's a low populated area. The Midwest alone accounts for 1/5 of the population of the U.S. [1]. 1. https://www.census.gov/popclock/data_tables.php?component=gr...

The Midwest has many large cities. But the Midwest does not completely overlap the wind belt. The more densely populated parts of the Midwest are especially far away.

The wind farms in SW Minnesota/the eastern Dakotas/ NW Iowa (http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/30m_US_Wind.jpg) are relatively close to the larger urban areas in the region and I suspect some of it might even feed into Chicago.

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#36

Post by Retric »

rodionos wrote: post #22

The runaway favorite in wind energy is Denmark, where wind turbines, predominantly offshore-based, produced 44% of the total energy production in 2016. https://apps.axibase.com/slider/energinet-2016/?slide=2 However, wind energy production is remarkably volatile with the minimum and maximum average hourly production per day being two orders of magnitude apart: 912.7 MWh (min) vs 102.6 GWh (max). https://apps.axibase.…

Hydro + Wind + Solar is a powerfull mix. Hydro tends to have fixed power per year, and a lot of flexibility when you release that power. Solar matches the daily demand in most areas, though Denmark is very far north to produce solar they can import solar from the south.

Wind is really cheap and provides some power 24/7 but does not match the demand curve. So even then you still needs some backup power either from pumped hydro or peaking power plants.

IMO, the real downside is the electric grid becomes even more complex to manage and takes real investments to handle shifting supply.

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#37

Post by arca_vorago »

It is worth noting Texas has it's own grid seperated from the west and east grids supplying most of the rest of the world. I had a relative who was a project manager on some of the big wind installs in Texas, but for some reason I can't remember his main criticism of the project which caused him to move over to solar work...

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#38

Post by Retric »

pjc50 wrote: post #34
ianlevesque wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that sounds like the perfect mix of generation technologies. Only thing missing is pumped hydro storage for some of those GWh days.

Pumped hydro requires very specific geography to make it viable, which is why it's present in so few places. That's why so many people are investigating other storage systems: batteries, compressed air, flywheels, etc.

You can shift electricity a thousand+ miles with minimal losses. Outside of small islands the real limitation is political borders. You can easily used pumped hydro on any major landmass, but ideal locations are often across a border which very closely ties your infrastructure with another country.

PS: The Rio Madeira transmission link in Brazil, with an overhead length of 2,385km, is the world's longest power transmission line. The geometry get's complex as you can effectively sift power from location A to D by offsetting the direction you send power from intermediary production at B and C.

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#39

Post by throwaway7645 »

mountainethos wrote: post #33
screwston wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Midwest has many large cities. But the Midwest does not completely overlap the wind belt. The more densely populated parts of the Midwest are especially far away.

Right, and places like Texas, Colorado, Oklahoma, and Montana are not included in the Midwest. The point isn't that the wind belt region makes up exactly 1/5 of the population, but that there are many people there that shouldn't be dismissed because they aren't in the most densely populated cities.

Oklahoma is definitely included in this RTO's footprint as is Kansas and parts of Montana.

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#40

Post by takk309 »

Retric wrote: post #38
pjc50 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pumped hydro requires very specific geography to make it viable, which is why it's present in so few places. That's why so many people are investigating other storage systems: batteries, compressed air, flywheels, etc.

You can shift electricity a thousand+ miles with minimal losses. Outside of small islands the real limitation is political borders. You can easily used pumped hydro on any major landmass, but ideal locations are often across a border which very closely ties your infrastructure with another country. PS: The Rio Madeira transmission link in Brazil, with an overhead length of 2,385km, is the world's longest power transm…

I was under the impression that line losses were rather high, until I did a quick bit of research and found that they are at around 5 to 6% nation wide [1]. At those levels, it can easily make sense to transmit the power to a location that has better storage.

[1] https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=105&t=3

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