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What happens when you dump the App Store?

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Re: What happens when you dump the App Store?

#111

Post by smcl »

astrodust wrote: post #79
CharlesW wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you know the answer to this (i.e. move to another vendor, as you would for any vendor that goes away), so my apologies in advance for not understanding the point you're trying to lead me to. I guess I don't understand the alternative. Go out of business?

I think the choice is between using a solid platform like the App Store or something like it, or building your own using tools that won't go away either. Stripe, PayPal, things like that. It takes a lot of effort to build out your own store and get it right, this is no small task, which is why the 30% fee charged by these stores is not necessarily the biggest obstacle. These intermediaries add considerable risk.

I'm not even sure we can assume Stripe won't go away, and Paypal has shown itself to be anything but dependable (sure it'll accept a payment but will you definitely get the money?)

Edit: Sorry I know those were just two examples - I'm not trying to refute your point

Re: What happens when you dump the App Store?

#112

Post by chimeracoder »

josephg wrote: post #110
thirdsun wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. To keep it getting updates through the app store vs. having to download from the developer when a new update comes out. For me this is the number one reason for not buying via the Mac AppStore. At this point almost every mac app uses the tried and tested Sparkle update mechanism [0], which is very fast and rather unobtrusive. I'm mostly done updating through sparkle before I even see the list of available update…

Sparkle is ahead of whats available on windows, but I still find it super annoying. I hate going to use a program and - just at that point I most want to get work done, I get annoying popups. "There's an update available! Quick - make some decisions about it! click " ugh wait for download "Restart the app to continue!" click "Heyyy, check out our new features! clickkkkkkk ". Its a total momentum killer. Like, imagine…

> Personally I wish all apps used Chrome's update mechanism. Its unobtrusive, the patches are tiny compared to the size of Chrome and it works great. Most users don't even know the updates are happening.

You can accomplish by checking the "Automatically download updates like this in the future" box in Sparkle. The problem, though, is that you have to trust the software to handle these updates perfectly if you want them to happen in the background for critical software. Chrome can do that, because Google has some of the best developers around working on the project, and because they have absurdly good development practices. (Not perfect, but far better than any independent developer or small shop working on the majority of apps that we're talking about).

Automatic updating is hard. About a year ago, there was an update to iTerm2 that broke the software completely. The fix was to temporarily downgrade while waiting for the next point release - but for people who allowed automatic updates, they simply discovered one morning that they couldn't open their terminal[0].

Slack had an issue as well about a year ago as well, though that issue was with their auto-updater itself being broken, and preventing them from upgrading. In that case, they had to request that affected users uninstall and reinstall the application, just to get the new version of the automatic updater installed[1].

[0] I think this was the one: https://gitlab.com/gnachman/iterm2/issues/4699

[1] It's hard to push an update to your software automatically if your automatic updater is what's broken.

Re: What happens when you dump the App Store?

#113

Post by mrspeaker »

blub wrote: post #94
tiglionabbit wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My #1 reason to use it is that it puts the purchase on my record so I can easily re-download it if I happen to lose it somehow. No more searching through ancient emails for activation codes.

That's not correct. Make sure you have backups because developers remove apps and then upload new versions under different application IDs, making you purchase them again. So basically you're renting software from the AppStore. I think I paid 100 EUR for Abby FineReader and now I can't access it any more.

Agreed - I purchased Sketch 2 for 50EUR, moved to the US on a new computer as Sketch 3 came out - I can't get Sketch 2 now. I can't bring myself to pay for it again, so... Inkscape it is!

Re: What happens when you dump the App Store?

#114

Post by elcapitan »

thirdsun wrote: post #100
spott wrote: post #4

The value-add of the mac store is just not very good anymore. There are only three reasons people might buy something from the mac store vs. from the developer directly: 1. To keep it getting updates through the app store vs. having to download from the developer when a new update comes out. 2. They found it in the mac store, and thus purchased it in the mac store. 3. They trust apple to reduce the risk of malware wh…

> 1. To keep it getting updates through the app store vs. having to download from the developer when a new update comes out. For me this is the number one reason for not buying via the Mac AppStore. At this point almost every mac app uses the tried and tested Sparkle update mechanism [0], which is very fast and rather unobtrusive. I'm mostly done updating through sparkle before I even see the list of available update…

Also, there are apps that you use more often and apps that you use less often. By leaving the update to the app itself, you can basically make use of the update mechanism in proportion to how much you really need the app (you start it up, there is an update, you run it in 10-15s and you're done). You haven't used it in half a year, you open it, update to the most recent version, done.

With the appstore on the other hand, besides being horribly slow, it will always present you everything that is updateable, even if you only need that tool only 3-4 times a year. So I will always have to make that call per every app in the list, every time I open the updates panel.

Re: What happens when you dump the App Store?

#115

Post by leobueno »

josephg wrote: post #110
thirdsun wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. To keep it getting updates through the app store vs. having to download from the developer when a new update comes out. For me this is the number one reason for not buying via the Mac AppStore. At this point almost every mac app uses the tried and tested Sparkle update mechanism [0], which is very fast and rather unobtrusive. I'm mostly done updating through sparkle before I even see the list of available update…

Sparkle is ahead of whats available on windows, but I still find it super annoying. I hate going to use a program and - just at that point I most want to get work done, I get annoying popups. "There's an update available! Quick - make some decisions about it! click " ugh wait for download "Restart the app to continue!" click "Heyyy, check out our new features! clickkkkkkk ". Its a total momentum killer. Like, imagine…

Check out https://github.com/Squirrel/Squirrel.Mac

I've never used the mac version, but Squirrel for windows works great and is unobtrusive. The Mac version promises the same: "Squirrel is an OS X framework focused on making application updates as safe and transparent as updates to a website.".

Re: What happens when you dump the App Store?

#116

Post by jon-wood »

elcapitan wrote: post #114
thirdsun wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. To keep it getting updates through the app store vs. having to download from the developer when a new update comes out. For me this is the number one reason for not buying via the Mac AppStore. At this point almost every mac app uses the tried and tested Sparkle update mechanism [0], which is very fast and rather unobtrusive. I'm mostly done updating through sparkle before I even see the list of available update…

Also, there are apps that you use more often and apps that you use less often. By leaving the update to the app itself, you can basically make use of the update mechanism in proportion to how much you really need the app (you start it up, there is an update, you run it in 10-15s and you're done). You haven't used it in half a year, you open it, update to the most recent version, done. With the appstore on the other h…

Why do you have to make that decision at all though? I guess I'm spoiled by Linux's package managers which allow me to leave my computer on overnight and have everything updated automatically without me even noticing.

Re: What happens when you dump the App Store?

#117

Post by ThomPete »

wingerlang wrote: post #106
dantiberian wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's not the app store icon, it's the generic Apple icon for an application. I would leave it, it indicates a Mac app, but not a MAS app.

I think when coupled like this, "[logo] buy" it gives the impression of "something apple". Personally I thought that it would either open the app store, or that is was something related to Apple pay (although that one needs "[logo] Pay"). It felt a bit misleading.

I think you are talking about the top right not the button?

Re: What happens when you dump the App Store?

#118

Post by makecheck »

summerdown2 wrote: post #109
makecheck wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A huge problem with the Mac App Store is that it is not a service for listing “all Mac software that exists” but it NEEDS to be. I would argue that the potential benefits to the platform for listing all software are huge, even if many pages end up being little more than links to external web sites. Sure, Apple wants a cut of sales but they’re already listing totally-free apps so they’ve shown that money isn’t everyth…

Users perceive the app store as giving a level of curation and security. If it became a list of "all Mac software that exists," and one of those turned out to be dodgy, Apple's image would take a real hit. Also, what would listing software that hasn't been through the submissions process actually mean? That the app is verified by Apple? That going to the site and putting your credit card number into the shopping cart…

Apple’s reputation is already taking a huge hit by allowing the Mac App Store to remain so broken for so long. And dodgy software does make it into their store.

They don’t need much of a warning for outside software sites. The page could have a banner at the top, or display one when you click the outside link.

Re: What happens when you dump the App Store?

#119

Post by makecheck »

chimeracoder wrote: post #112
josephg wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sparkle is ahead of whats available on windows, but I still find it super annoying. I hate going to use a program and - just at that point I most want to get work done, I get annoying popups. "There's an update available! Quick - make some decisions about it! click " ugh wait for download "Restart the app to continue!" click "Heyyy, check out our new features! clickkkkkkk ". Its a total momentum killer. Like, imagine…

> Personally I wish all apps used Chrome's update mechanism. Its unobtrusive, the patches are tiny compared to the size of Chrome and it works great. Most users don't even know the updates are happening. You can accomplish by checking the "Automatically download updates like this in the future" box in Sparkle. The problem, though, is that you have to trust the software to handle these updates perfectly if you want th…

I’m really surprised that more automatic update systems don’t make a complete copy of the old image (and keep it in an obvious place) before trying to merge or overwrite changes. Disks are huge, and it would mean that users can simply run the previous version in the event of an unexpected breaking change after an update.

The only one I can think of that makes a copy is the one from Omni Group, which seems to leave an old version in the Trash. Plus, it renames the application so it has an exact “version” for clarity.

Re: What happens when you dump the App Store?

#120

Post by ThomPete »

newscracker wrote: post #96
ThomPete wrote: post #9

I pulled my mac app http://www.ghostnoteapp.com from the appstore back in '15 only 5 months after launching it and haven't looked back since. It's still a pretty profitable app for me and I actually enjoy the freedom of not having to have it go through review process. For most mac apps people are googling rather than browsing the app store anyway.

As a cheapskate app buyer (a learned behavior from different app stores), I noticed that you had this priced at $4.99 while it was on the Mac App Store but have it at $9.99 on your own store now. That made me rethink if I really need this app because it "seems expensive" with this information in the background. This is just a buyer psychology observation, and not intended to devalue your app or your efforts in any wa…

Pricing is a tricky thing. Start to high and go lower and people get mad for being tricked into buying the expensive version when a cheaper one comes out. I made that mistake with my first product and promised never to do that again.

I was also pricing it on my own website at $4.99 back then.

I realized that the value I was creating was more than $4.99 and I haven't seen a drop in revenue based on that.

So you have to find the sweet spot in order to afford keep developing it.

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