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For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

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Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#21

Post by 6d6b73 »

sand500 wrote: post #18
iharhajster wrote: post #12

It amazes me how humans constantly have sheer lack of will power to solve some global issues. For example, according to this pie [1], electric car is still a car indirectly running on fossil fuels. For fun, let's think for a second how much solar panels does it take to power planet Earth. After rough calculation it's about 496805 km2, which is approximately an area of Spain. This calculation is based on consumption p…

But your car is also a battery and you could charge it using excess home solar. I personally think the answer is to expand nuclear power. Current and next generation plants are way safer than the designs used for Cherynobl, Three Miles or Fukushima .

Nuclear power seems cleaner, but when you take under consideration things like waste fuel storage it simply does not make much sense.. Yes, it's a great short term solution, but what if in 500 years there is nobody to take care of all of the spent fuel, and clean up all of the nuclear power plant sites?

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#22

Post by rodionos »

The runaway favorite in wind energy is Denmark, where wind turbines, predominantly offshore-based, produced 44% of the total energy production in 2016.

https://apps.axibase.com/slider/energinet-2016/?slide=2

However, wind energy production is remarkably volatile with the minimum and maximum average hourly production per day being two orders of magnitude apart: 912.7 MWh (min) vs 102.6 GWh (max).

https://apps.axibase.com/slider/energinet-2016/?slide=24

They started incentivizing solar generation since it is counter-seasonal compared to wind, wind is stronger in winter months.

https://apps.axibase.com/slider/energinet-2016/?slide=5

This is not sufficient however, so sufficient reserved conventional capacity and interconnects to Norway (hydro) and Germany (gas) is something that helps them even out production on abnormal days.

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#23

Post by maxerickson »

samcheng wrote: post #7
kodfodrasz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the few factories I have worked the power hungry processes cannot be stopped on demand (eg. one day notice), as it would waste products, it would mess up minimum stockpile lean manufacturing, as the process cannot be interrupted, it could often damage equipment, and usually restarting these processes is very expensive in terms of energy (eg. Reheating a kiln) The renewables are simply not predictable enough for th…

You're right; many of these facilities go so far as to install backup Diesel generation on-site. There are plenty of opportunities for demand-shaving, though. The simplest one is to simply reduce the HVAC load by adjusting the thermostat. I agree we need some nuclear, too, at least in the short term; it's not an either-or proposition. We need nuclear AND renewables AND smart grid AND storage.

The paper mill near here has one of the larger power plants (biomass, burns waste wood) in the region. It uses more power than the nearby small towns combined.

The best way to get industrial consumers to switch is to drive down costs. We're certainly nowhere near 250 Megawatt-hour batteries being cheap and commonplace, but there are projects of that scale that have been announced (in particular I'm thinking of the Vanadium flow battery being installed in China).

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#24

Post by Filligree »

6d6b73 wrote: post #21
sand500 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your car is also a battery and you could charge it using excess home solar. I personally think the answer is to expand nuclear power. Current and next generation plants are way safer than the designs used for Cherynobl, Three Miles or Fukushima .

Nuclear power seems cleaner, but when you take under consideration things like waste fuel storage it simply does not make much sense.. Yes, it's a great short term solution, but what if in 500 years there is nobody to take care of all of the spent fuel, and clean up all of the nuclear power plant sites?

In 500 years the fuel will have decayed to near-harmlessness. It'd still be a toxic heavy metal, so you don't want to eat it, but simply standing next to it isn't going to kill you.

There's also the little detail that we're using the least efficient fuel cycle imaginable. More efficient ones, e.g. involving breeder reactors, wouldn't produce nearly as much waste.

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#25

Post by pjc50 »

sand500 wrote: post #18
iharhajster wrote: post #12

It amazes me how humans constantly have sheer lack of will power to solve some global issues. For example, according to this pie [1], electric car is still a car indirectly running on fossil fuels. For fun, let's think for a second how much solar panels does it take to power planet Earth. After rough calculation it's about 496805 km2, which is approximately an area of Spain. This calculation is based on consumption p…

But your car is also a battery and you could charge it using excess home solar. I personally think the answer is to expand nuclear power. Current and next generation plants are way safer than the designs used for Cherynobl, Three Miles or Fukushima .

The cost of nuclear is really unimpressive and the permitting takes ages due to the unpopularity and safety concerns.

(Hinkley Point C I'm taking as an example; it's being guaranteed electricity prices far above those of wind)

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#26

Post by aianus »

happosai wrote: post #10
WalterBright wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Variable pricing can likely do a great deal to match supply with demand without needing grid storage. Many uses of power are flexible, like charging electric cars, running the electric water heater/freezer/refrigerator, etc.

The variability needs to be very high to be an effective incentive for small power uses. If price of electricity goes from 10c/kWh to $1/kWh, it won't stop you using 1kW kettle for 5min if you want tea. And if push the price high enough to be effective, it starts hurting essential electricity users. Demand adjustment is more effective for industrial users who have beancounters. Probably better to target excessive cap…

It's roughly 2x more expensive on peak vs off peak in Ontario and it was enough that all my roommates would plan their dishwasher and laundry schedule around it.

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#27

Post by 6d6b73 »

Filligree wrote: post #24
6d6b73 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear power seems cleaner, but when you take under consideration things like waste fuel storage it simply does not make much sense.. Yes, it's a great short term solution, but what if in 500 years there is nobody to take care of all of the spent fuel, and clean up all of the nuclear power plant sites?

In 500 years the fuel will have decayed to near-harmlessness. It'd still be a toxic heavy metal, so you don't want to eat it, but simply standing next to it isn't going to kill you. There's also the little detail that we're using the least efficient fuel cycle imaginable. More efficient ones, e.g. involving breeder reactors, wouldn't produce nearly as much waste.

What if just one of the almost 500 power plants goes into a meltdown after a disaster/asteroid strike/pandemic . How long will it take for the fuel to become harmless? 20k years?

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#28

Post by elgenie »

Animats wrote: post #8

That's because there's not much load in that area. America's best wind power belt is north from the Texas panhandle up to Canada.[1] But there are no big cities in that region. The US thus needs more long DC power lines. The technology is already in use in China. The Zhundong-Sichuan power line goes 2600km. It's a DC line at 1.1 megavolts carrying 10 gigawatts. That technology could easily carry power from the wind b…

Dallas-FTW, Kansas City, Minneapolis, and Chicago look to be pretty darn close to that wind power belt.

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#29

Post by ianlevesque »

rodionos wrote: post #22

The runaway favorite in wind energy is Denmark, where wind turbines, predominantly offshore-based, produced 44% of the total energy production in 2016. https://apps.axibase.com/slider/energinet-2016/?slide=2 However, wind energy production is remarkably volatile with the minimum and maximum average hourly production per day being two orders of magnitude apart: 912.7 MWh (min) vs 102.6 GWh (max). https://apps.axibase.…

Yeah that sounds like the perfect mix of generation technologies. Only thing missing is pumped hydro storage for some of those GWh days.

Re: For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power

#30

Post by epistasis »

Animats wrote: post #8

That's because there's not much load in that area. America's best wind power belt is north from the Texas panhandle up to Canada.[1] But there are no big cities in that region. The US thus needs more long DC power lines. The technology is already in use in China. The Zhundong-Sichuan power line goes 2600km. It's a DC line at 1.1 megavolts carrying 10 gigawatts. That technology could easily carry power from the wind b…

Agreed on the HVDC lines. They end up reducing the cost of electricity too, because they let us use all of the really cheap wind on the plains, and sun from the southwest.
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