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Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

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Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#51

Post by Vinnl »

TheBobinator wrote: post #42
lazaroclapp wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not theoretical, free-market niceties when you have lived abroad for 6 years. Or when your parents are both from different countries. Or when your grandparent immigrated out of the U.S. to live 2/3rds of his life in the country you were born in and never encountered this level of pushback. There is a lot to be said for making welfare systems work together with immigration. But putting "fellow citizens" above…

The problem there is the propensity for foreigners, well-educated in the back-assward ways of their country of origin, to come to America, ostensibly to partake in our, in some way measurably superior economy and culture, then expect to introduce their back-asswards ways here and expect those ways to be successful, then when they find out we think their entire country is as back-asswards as they are and refuse to put…

Maybe you should actually visit a foreign country. It's quite nice here.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#52

Post by jpgvm »

mpoloton wrote: post #41
wdcgu wrote: post #31

As usual, these rants treat "Silicon Valley" as a single entity. http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx There are some companies that underpay, while other pay quite well. Conflating the two is like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

The statistical expectation from the dataset that you link to is $86,328.67 [1]. I no nothing about US salaries, but I don't consider this value a competitive salary. Therefore, I believe the premise of the article is statically correct. Citing a few example with large salaries (Apple, Google, ...) is misleading. 1- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1f0iZ7VZkA7Th2dCE6rgD...

The main issue is that all of the stats are brought down by TCS/TechM/Infosys and other body shops that pay just over the 60k cutoff. The average for H1-B actual software engineers is likely around $100k in SV, maybe a tad higher as you usually don't relocate people from abroad unless they are really good.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#53

Post by aaron-lebo »

angry_napkin wrote: post #48
amarant wrote: post #22

if companies was only after cheap labor, why not move software production overseas? it's not like officespace is cheaper in the valley than in ex. India.....don't think this article makes a whole lot of sense tbh

Because being in the Valley is magical for your company, or something.

They want to have their cake and eat it, too. Or: live in California, hire from Calcutta.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#54

Post by lazaroclapp »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #47
lazaroclapp wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not theoretical, free-market niceties when you have lived abroad for 6 years. Or when your parents are both from different countries. Or when your grandparent immigrated out of the U.S. to live 2/3rds of his life in the country you were born in and never encountered this level of pushback. There is a lot to be said for making welfare systems work together with immigration. But putting "fellow citizens" above…

But they are theoretical free-market niceties when you are a minority that has a low chance of getting a job in tech because companies would rather import cheap foreigners rather than work on building up a domestic workforce. The same goes for if you are a poor white person in the middle of nowhere. Unfortunately, the same people driving these conditions would also use the results of this to drive the two groups agai…

But I am not making it an us vs them, that's the whole point. Your argument is that we should all be trying to maximize the benefits to the citizens of our own country, and no one else, literally an us vs them position. For many countries, blocking U.S. Internet services and substituting 80%-of-the-way domestic alternatives does just that in terms of boosting employment. It might not be the same legal framework, but if you are advocating for putting co-national workers first at all costs, then that's very much an option. I consider an open web to be one of those principles that are worth maintaining, though. But it definitely is lower on the list than many other concerns that might count as 'nice to haves' under the nationalistic argument I am seeing made.

Note that I am in favor of better conditions for workers, more progressive taxes, UBI, free higher education, some forms of fair-trade arrangements, you name it. What I am not for is "no foreigners until unemployment is strictly at zero". I think in the long run we should be able to come up with systems at the national and international levels that are fair to both local workers and immigrants. In the context of the current administration, though, I don't see us getting that, I see a lot of scapegoating, a lot of rash policies and an international industry supported by an international workforce, eventually either dying, fragmenting or leaving the U.S.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#55

Post by literallycancer »

sheepmullet wrote: post #44
danenania wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are people born inside the imaginary lines of my country more important to help than those born outside of it? Someone from Bangladesh or Mexico is not a fellow citizen of my country, but they are a fellow citizen of my world. Why should the smaller and more arbitrary geographical division come first? You can talk about culture, but I'm sure I have more in common culturally with a phd student or entrepreneur in D…

I find it interesting that the "American first" crowd tends to donate more to the overseas needy than the "citizens of the world" crowd . excluding a few billionaires who really do believe in helping others.

Care to provide a source?

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#56

Post by aaron-lebo »

lazaroclapp wrote: post #54
aaron-lebo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they are theoretical free-market niceties when you are a minority that has a low chance of getting a job in tech because companies would rather import cheap foreigners rather than work on building up a domestic workforce. The same goes for if you are a poor white person in the middle of nowhere. Unfortunately, the same people driving these conditions would also use the results of this to drive the two groups agai…

But I am not making it an us vs them, that's the whole point. Your argument is that we should all be trying to maximize the benefits to the citizens of our own country, and no one else, literally an us vs them position. For many countries, blocking U.S. Internet services and substituting 80%-of-the-way domestic alternatives does just that in terms of boosting employment. It might not be the same legal framework, but…

Your argument is that we should all be trying to maximize the benefits to the citizens of our own country, and no one else, literally an us vs them position.

Building up domestic industries is a win for everyone and that goes for any country. Send your best workers to Silicon Valley and your nation is already suffering a drain on talent.

For many countries, blocking U.S. Internet services and substituting 80%-of-the-way domestic alternatives does just that in terms of boosting employment. It might not be the same legal framework, but if you are advocating for putting co-national workers first at all costs, then that's very much an option.

Those countries are welcome to try it and it might even be good for them, but I doubt they want to lose access to US services. That's what leverage is. If those countries have leverage then let them use it.

I think in the long run we should be able to come up with systems at the national and international levels that are fair to both local workers and immigrants.

Ok, so let's deal with the current H-1B program now instead of waiting another 4 or 8 or 16 years or however long some people would like to delay it.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#57

Post by NetStrikeForce »

lazaroclapp wrote: post #25
stupidcar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring the fact the US already produces a surplus of skilled and qualified STEM professionals. Freedom of labor movement is a nice–to–have, but not some ideological priority that must be placed above all other considerations. The size of the pool of human capital is irrelevant if there simply aren't enough jobs on offer. The government of a country should be first and foremost advocates for, and protectors o…

They are not theoretical, free-market niceties when you have lived abroad for 6 years. Or when your parents are both from different countries. Or when your grandparent immigrated out of the U.S. to live 2/3rds of his life in the country you were born in and never encountered this level of pushback. There is a lot to be said for making welfare systems work together with immigration. But putting "fellow citizens" above…

I have always found interesting that people try to chalk out freedom of labour movement as a "nicety, an ideological thing" - while I have to accept that Facebook, Microsoft, Google, Apple, Amazon can become rich selling to my people while the US is protectionist with the well-paid job positions in those companies.

You can sell your shit to me and I can't sell my labour to you. Ok, at least pay taxes locally and fund my universities, roads and infrastructures to pump up the local market.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#58

Post by alextheparrot »

danenania wrote: post #24
stupidcar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring the fact the US already produces a surplus of skilled and qualified STEM professionals. Freedom of labor movement is a nice–to–have, but not some ideological priority that must be placed above all other considerations. The size of the pool of human capital is irrelevant if there simply aren't enough jobs on offer. The government of a country should be first and foremost advocates for, and protectors o…

Why are people born inside the imaginary lines of my country more important to help than those born outside of it? Someone from Bangladesh or Mexico is not a fellow citizen of my country, but they are a fellow citizen of my world. Why should the smaller and more arbitrary geographical division come first? You can talk about culture, but I'm sure I have more in common culturally with a phd student or entrepreneur in D…

Why should people born outside the imaginary lines of my country be allowed to come inside it? The power structure resides inside the described imaginary lines, thus the outsiders need to make this argument to the insiders, not the opposite way, realistically. If the outsiders can't convince the insiders, they simply won't be let in.

With that framing, it is easy to see how it isn't (necessarily) bigotry, but just that the outsiders appear to offer little or negative value to many people. By saying "They are taking our jobs", people are expressing that they believe the outsiders being let has a negative effect on them, thus it is quite rational that they want to strengthen those imaginary lines.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#59

Post by alextheparrot »

Does anyone else consider immigration a significant part of US foreign policy? Wouldn't offering visas to "rising" countries allow us to pick off much of their best talent, thus boosting the US and lowering the other countries? The global power struggles of today, I believe, will be won by countries who can dictate the technology that refocuses which resources are needed.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#60

Post by shard972 »

alextheparrot wrote: post #59

Does anyone else consider immigration a significant part of US foreign policy? Wouldn't offering visas to "rising" countries allow us to pick off much of their best talent, thus boosting the US and lowering the other countries? The global power struggles of today, I believe, will be won by countries who can dictate the technology that refocuses which resources are needed.

> Wouldn't offering visas to "rising" countries allow us to pick off much of their best talent, thus boosting the US and lowering the other countries?

I haven't seen H1B visa's used like this in my personal experience. At the last company I worked for they were mostly used to fill our testing team with people from India.

Maybe they were all guinness, the problem was all but one of them could speak/write english fluently.

I can also look at my boyfriend's current employer who recently took a trip to india in order to hire a team of indians "on the cheap" only to fire all but 1 within a month after they didn't really get anything productive done.

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