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High-speed rail taking shape even as opponents seek to kill it

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271–280 of 297 posts

Re: High-speed rail taking shape even as opponents seek to kill it

#271

If I had known that they were going to run this through the Central Valley instead of down the coast where it belongs I never would have voted for it. It should have gone straight from la to Oakland or emeryville, turned and gone straight to Sacramento. Instead we have a convoluted mess of rail connections that take people places they don't even want to go (no offense to Bakersfield buts it's hardly a holiday destina…

> no offense to Bakersfield buts it's hardly a holiday destination

No, it's not. I was born in and grew up there, and I'm glad I left (though as a kid, I thought it was a nice place to live).

But it (and Fresno, and the CV in general) does have something that the coast and SF/LA doesn't have: Low-cost housing/property.

Imagine being able to live in Bako, Fresno, etc - and commute quickly to SF or LA. By high-speed rail, it'd probably only take an hour or two each way. Provided that it didn't cost a lot (or you could get monthly 2-way passes), it would be a great way for those who want to work in SV or such to do so, and be able to afford to live comfortably in a home with a family.

In fact, the idea is interesting enough to me to consider moving back to California (I'd love a tech job in the SF area, but the cost of living - mainly housing - just blows that idea out of the water).

Re: High-speed rail taking shape even as opponents seek to kill it

#272
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am frequently traveling between Portland and Seattle. I've tried airplane, bus and train. The train is the slowest of the three. However, The Lyft ride from SeaTac to downtown Seattle costs more than the train ride. The train is also so much more comfortable. Unless I am under time pressure I take the train. The bus frequently smells like porter potty which eliminated that cheaper and faster option. Of course the L…

>I am super concerned about the stops in irrlevant cities though. And people can't understand why large swaths of the population think well-off techies are out-of-touch.

Not only that, but they presumably have never ridden on a train before.

Every Amtrak train I've been on (which, of course, is not the model of efficiency) takes on the order of two or three minutes for most intermediate station stops, if not less. The train stops, people leave, new passengers enter, and it starts rolling again. Stowing/gathering belongings, getting seated, lining up at the exits, and ticketing is all done while the train is in motion. It's not like having a flight layover.

Re: High-speed rail taking shape even as opponents seek to kill it

#273
I would prefer to see the money spent on improving Caltrain. It really is not a viable option for a lot of people. South of SJ Diridon, the trains only run 3x in the morning and 3x in the evening and they require you to basically wake up at 5 or 6 AM depending on the train you want to catch. A lot of tech workers don't come into the office until after 10 AM.

The high speed rail won't really help people already living in Silicon Valley except for the rare few who live near downtown San Jose and plan to work in SF (or vice versa).

And yet, they are the ones who will bear the inconvenience. The proposed plans I have seen will have the train elevated 60 ft in the air, it's about 70-80 ft total from my bedroom window and the train will travel 150 mph several times an hour at around 100 dB. Additionally, they will be narrowing a major road that is 2 lanes in each direction to 1 lane in each direction to make room for the train. Which is weird, because the Caltrain tracks are just another 30 feet away so not sure why they don't just build it above that.

There was some talk of a proposal to reimburse home owners due to the loss of value to their homes if this goes through. Based on the proposal I was looking at they showed a $100K to $200K loss of property value if the train goes through.

If I actually wanted to take the train, it would take me 20-45 minutes to get to the train station in San Jose even though I am already in San Jose.

I'm really disappointed in how impractical this is for the majority of people who live and work in SF bay area and the level of cost and inconvenience it will cause.

Re: High-speed rail taking shape even as opponents seek to kill it

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One advantage of rail is you can put a station in the middle of a metro area, removing travel time to the airport.

The California High Speed Rail will end farther from San Francisco city than the airport currently is.

Maybe. It will first arrive at San Jose's Diridon station, but the longer term plan is for the trains to go to the Transbay Terminal, which is in Downtown San Francisco.

However, a lot of things could happen, which would derail these plans.

Re: High-speed rail taking shape even as opponents seek to kill it

#275
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The inner areas will be more likely to want transit to the endpoints than to each other. Of course having only two stops wouldn't pay for the train but it's probably easier to drive from Bakersfield to Fresno eg and you need a car both places whereas going to LA/SF without a car doesn't present a hassle. If you look at page 43 here on the ridership projections: http://www.hsr.ca.gov/docs/about/business_plans/2016_Bus…

I don't quite get how you're coming to 2/3 of revenue between MTC and SCAG regions (Its not adding up to that for me). It also isn't very clear: MTC has a projection for ridership to SCAG, but SCAG doesn't have projections for ridership to MTC but they do for the SJV? I'm also not sure where this newer forecast model came from, but it seems highly subject to politicized biases: they basically asked individual regions…

>I don't quite get how you're coming to 2/3 of revenue between MTC and SCAG regions

I said "to either", not "between". I also didn't suggest cutting out intermediate stops, but I did allow them to move outside of the town centers. In other words, most travelers from SJV are going to either MTC or SCAG, not within SJV, and in particular this is not directly analogous to the 19th century because of the extensive road network and the popularity of cars. Similarly, putting the rail corridor 30-60 minutes from the town is probably OK since the majority of residents of those towns will probably be driving to the train anyway, while doing that in a horse-and-buggy economy will of course doom ridership.

From page 5 of your link:

LA-Bay = $735M

LA-SJV = $355

SJV-Bay = $346

...

Within SJV = $29

total = $2355

to [LA or Bay] = 735 + 355 + 346 = $1436 or 62% of total.

So over 90% of ridership from SJV is going to either SCAG or MTC or further. The data seem to comport with my estimate that in order to start recouping costs you need, at the very least, service to one endpoint. This doesn't mean you should remove intermediate stops but it does support the idea that SJV HSR customers are mostly traveling long distances and might not mind leaving town to get to the train. This is particularly true if parking fees can be reduced by moving the train station out of town, since the current projection is $12 which I'm afraid might be "per day" (nearly as bad as the airport!) and people hate that.

The report I linked notes that the projection is for cars to continue accounting for 93% of intra-regional travel demand: i.e. while "the world is local" as your link states I have a hard time believing that market insights from a world without cars will translate readily to one with cars. Additionally, while some New Urbanists have started to try to build car-free cities, this goes against the wishes of the general public (including me) and I doubt it'll be popular in the politically conservative Central Valley. In this light, driving the train through the middle of Bakersfield as opposed to the outskirts looks like an attempt by the state to implement a vision of Bakersfield's future that the residents of Bakersfield did not really ask for. The majority of Central Valley customers will be driving, rather than walking/bussing, to the train even under the current plans. I'd also like to point out that, while there is an environmental motive for reducing our dependence on gasoline via cars, I personally expect electric cars to arrive sooner than a restructuring of the infrastructure of Central Valley cities that deprioritizes cars in favor of public transit. It could happen, but I'm not betting on it. So this:

>intermediate stations will always be a veritable monopoly for rail.

doesn't seem as clear to me as it does to you. And while as you mention the projections may have underestimated ridership in the (less-infrastructure-keen) non-city regions, they also assume a 50% real increase in the cost of auto travel, which as noted may be softened or reversed by the adoption of battery-powered vehicles. Therefore, Dionysus Lardner's observation that the median trip in 1846 was about 15 miles long probably would not apply in 2025.

As you've probably inferred, most of my background in this area is political and personal rather than technical. So, for example, I don't really know if moving the train line out of Tulare actually results in a significant savings on land and/or a reduction in construction time (especially this!), without which my whole point is moot. But I do not think that Fresno is analogous to a city in Germany, nor do I have a desire to turn it into one. Americans like cars, despite the powerful people with professional social networks who want to control us.'

edit: agh this is a bit of a mess, I hope it isn't too confrontational, and I appreciate you sharing your expertise.

Re: High-speed rail taking shape even as opponents seek to kill it

#276

I would prefer to see the money spent on improving Caltrain. It really is not a viable option for a lot of people. South of SJ Diridon, the trains only run 3x in the morning and 3x in the evening and they require you to basically wake up at 5 or 6 AM depending on the train you want to catch. A lot of tech workers don't come into the office until after 10 AM. The high speed rail won't really help people already living…

High speed rail isn't generally meant for commuters - if it had frequent stops, it would never have a chance to reach high speeds before it would have to slow down again.

Perhaps they could provide some subsidy to help you soundproof the side of your house facing the tracks?

Also, it's 100 dB at what distance?

Re: High-speed rail taking shape even as opponents seek to kill it

#277
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite get how you're coming to 2/3 of revenue between MTC and SCAG regions (Its not adding up to that for me). It also isn't very clear: MTC has a projection for ridership to SCAG, but SCAG doesn't have projections for ridership to MTC but they do for the SJV? I'm also not sure where this newer forecast model came from, but it seems highly subject to politicized biases: they basically asked individual regions…

>I don't quite get how you're coming to 2/3 of revenue between MTC and SCAG regions I said "to either", not "between". I also didn't suggest cutting out intermediate stops, but I did allow them to move outside of the town centers. In other words, most travelers from SJV are going to either MTC or SCAG, not within SJV, and in particular this is not directly analogous to the 19th century because of the extensive road n…

>I did allow them to move outside of the town centers.

Which is the case with a number of the shin- stations on the shinkansen lines. (Although, being Japan, those stations are still well-connected to the city transit systems and they're not that far out of the traditional town centers.)

Re: High-speed rail taking shape even as opponents seek to kill it

#278
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I am super concerned about the stops in irrlevant cities though. And people can't understand why large swaths of the population think well-off techies are out-of-touch.

Not only that, but they presumably have never ridden on a train before. Every Amtrak train I've been on (which, of course, is not the model of efficiency) takes on the order of two or three minutes for most intermediate station stops, if not less. The train stops, people leave, new passengers enter, and it starts rolling again. Stowing/gathering belongings, getting seated, lining up at the exits, and ticketing is all…

You also lose time by slowing down and speeding up but that notwithstanding, you may have fewer intermediate stops with HSR (as is the case with Acela vs. Regional service) but you can't cut out intermediate stops. All you have to do is look at Shinkansen routes.

Re: High-speed rail taking shape even as opponents seek to kill it

#279
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is false. I don't blame you because it is often repeated. But agriculture only accounts for about 40% of California's water use. In an average year, about 39% of California's water consumption, or 34.1 million acre-feet, is used for agricultural purposes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_in_California#Uses_of_wa...

It's actually not false. If you read the article you posted, you will see that half of the water is used for environmental uses. That means is not used by humans, but "let go". So if you sum the rest, agriculture does use 80% of the water used by humans.

Directing water to a tree to grow almonds, and directing it to a stream to support the delta smelt are both human directed usages. You can't just count the usages you don't like to make the number look big.

Re: High-speed rail taking shape even as opponents seek to kill it

#280
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite get how you're coming to 2/3 of revenue between MTC and SCAG regions (Its not adding up to that for me). It also isn't very clear: MTC has a projection for ridership to SCAG, but SCAG doesn't have projections for ridership to MTC but they do for the SJV? I'm also not sure where this newer forecast model came from, but it seems highly subject to politicized biases: they basically asked individual regions…

>I don't quite get how you're coming to 2/3 of revenue between MTC and SCAG regions I said "to either", not "between". I also didn't suggest cutting out intermediate stops, but I did allow them to move outside of the town centers. In other words, most travelers from SJV are going to either MTC or SCAG, not within SJV, and in particular this is not directly analogous to the 19th century because of the extensive road n…

I would agree that having two major city termini is a huge determinant of demand. I definitely wouldn't suggest starting with one city, although branch lines can definitely be built at lower risk levels once you have a strong backbone.

I've seen overviews of the LGV models to know that they aren't making decisions on where to stop based purely on politics (I'm sure there are some politics involved, but the schedule optimization models are very objective). Those optimization models take into account things like cannibalization, where most riders from two close small towns can be served by one station in between them, only losing a small percent over a situation with two stations. But mostly the model is an LP of the total revenue lost from removing a station vs the total revenue gained from adding a station, and the revenue projections obtained from a forecast model that predicts the cartesian set of all possible orig-dest pairs of a line. And these models have resulted in stops in tiny towns like Loche (pop 35k), Macon (pop 35k), and Le Creusot (pop 22k). > It could happen, but I'm not betting on it. So this: [...] doesn't seem as clear to me as it does to you.

In France, the outlying towns are not much different from California. They may not be as car-centric as places like Madera or Merced, but they are at least as car-dependent. Density is low enough that cars are still a necessity. And while some of these stations avoid going directly through the towns they serve, very few are more than a 3-5 km from the town center.

From the perspective of someone who grew up in Stockton, I'd say that concerns about car dependency are still overblown outside of intra-SJV trips in general. If the destination is a line terminus, transit/taxis are abundant enough to use easily, and that leaves the trip to the station as the only deterrent. But getting a ride isn't that big of a deal. Living there, you almost always have access to someone that can give you a ride to the airport 45 minutes away if you need it...a trip across town should be pretty easy. Taxis are available on a scheduled ride basis, and most businesses with regular travelers maintain a list of van services that handle trips to and from airports. The concern is real, but I think most valley-dwellers have adapted to their situation quite well.

I'm not an expert on property values in the valley (haven't lived there for 2 decades), but I can imagine the possibility of it being cheaper to build through the cities simply because they already have freight ROWs running through them. Getting a ROW easement on an existing un-partitioned property tends to be fraught with peril. It is easy for a large land owner to hold a line hostage for higher prices if they know that one "no" ruins an entire plan. Buying up existing freight ROW (which I believe is part of the plan) would definitely be easier and faster...it might also end up being cheaper.

And no worries about being confrontational. I wasn't trying to, and I didn't interpret your response as confrontational either.

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