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Encrypted email is still a pain

incoherency.co.uk

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Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#31
For what it's worth, I used to use encrypted mail some time ago as much as possible, before realising it was fundamentally flawed:

— the key retention is the biggest issue. You need to keep your key around for a long time, probably storing copies of it. This increases the probability of a leak.

— there is no method to revoke a key with a 100% assurance that nobody will use or trust it afterwards.

— if a key is broken or leaked, every encrypted message you ever received can be deciphered. And I hope you realise it, or future messages are also at risk.

Those are the three major flaws I can remember right now. The way people usually use it make them feel safe while they are not necessarily. It's a bit like reusing a complex password on different websites (although far less critical since the key is assymetric).

The way I use it now (and I never actually needed it, to be fair), is that if some third party want to send me some confidential information, they request my public key via an open channel, and I then generate a key, unique for this conversation (ideally, it would be done on a per-email basis). Of course, the complex part here is ensuring they receive the proper key (ie, no man in the middle). This can be done by using a side (preferably secure) channel.

Of course, in today's world, encrypted emails are not the best way to communicate privately, in my opinion, but that's another story.

And there are a couple of other issues regarding encrypted emails such as its adoption, it's complexity, etc. But none as fundamental.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#32
post #19
post #11

I have "taught" encrypted email for many years to different types of people. I'm surprised to see that most non-technical people that I assisted had a better understanding of these same tools than the author. Generating the key using Enigmail has always worked for both Windows and Debian/Ubuntu (those are the top OSs people brought), finding a person's key was a pain a few years ago, I love the new UI. My conclusion:…

The author probably exaggerates, but identifies a very valid point. You really don't want to have this kind of confusion about something that you are planning to trust your secrets to.

The naming confusion is legitimate (PGP, GPG, openPGP) but it literally takes one Google query "PGP GPG" to answer that question in 30 seconds.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#33
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * Hundreds of millions of users that primarily access messages through browser clients that can't meaningfully implement crypto. Isn't protonmail pretty much a direct counter-example of this? They even have an extension you can use if you don't want their server to be trusted at all: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/protonmail-checker... > * End user demands for things like search that can only be delivere…

No? Virtually nobody uses Protonmail. If the only thing between encrypted email and no encrypted email was a single provider that implemented PGP, we'd have had universal encrypted email in 1999. (I'm stipulating that anything Protonmail does actually, you know, works. I have no idea if it does. Why bother? Encrypted email isn't going anywhere. The track record on things like this is quite bad.)

In 99, webmail providers were nearly all using squirrelmail or some self-invented thing and people were using offline mail clients, where GPG/PGG could have been an option. The terminals were behind, cloud computing ahead, and everyone knew your stuff is gone if your are careless and reinstall your computer, since POP3 was still a common thing. (Unlike IMAP, POP is usually used in a mode where no copies are left on the server, so the mails only exist where you pulled them down to.)

The big difference, however, that the world wasn't yet spying on every drop of text you made, and that is why email encryption didn't take off: there was no real need.

Unfortunately, the cloud and web "revolution" happened before people realized they should encrypt _before_ moving back to centralized services and now it seems to be a lost cause.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#34

If you're OK with using a third-party and would rather stick to GUI's, Virtru is a very easy solution for email encryption: https://www.virtru.com/

Where by "email encryption" we mean "mail people a link to a service they can register with and then upload messages and file to, so that SMTP is used only to relay links to messages, not the messages themselves, and email is encrypted by dint of TLS connections".

That's what most F-500 companies do to solve this problem. It's a more viable approach than direct encryption of PGP.

Normal people --- and eventually the F-500's, too --- just use WhatsApp.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#35

Do any of these keyservers perform email verification? It would go a good way towards some kind of verification that a user's GPG key corresponds to their email. Otherwise, anyone can generate a key with any email address and push it up to the servers. The standard way of verifying it (key-signing parties) is somewhat difficult.

Making users assume that emails are in _any way_ verified is dangerous because it is far too low of a bar to provide any practical security for PGP keys. Not to mention that PGP keys can be used outside the context of email (so the email could be empty or otherwise incorrect).

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#36
post #7

Encrypted email is pretty much over in 2017. The emerging consensus among experts is that it's not worth the trouble, or, worse, incapable of doing much more than generating a false sense of security. That's for a bunch of reasons: * An enormous installed base of clients that won't do encryption, meaning that at best you're attempting to tunnel encrypted messaging over an unencrypted transport. * A protocol that leak…

This is all true, but IM is not email.

What I want out of email that IM does not (generally) deliver: 1) UI optimized for longer form messages. 2) Decentralized system where you can send to anyone if you know their address, which may be long-lasting and not tied to the fortunes of a single private company.

I don't demand compatibility or interoperability with SMTP, but I also don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It looks like an an email application layer is buildable on top of Matrix, so that's something I'm following and looking forward to.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#37
post #33
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? Virtually nobody uses Protonmail. If the only thing between encrypted email and no encrypted email was a single provider that implemented PGP, we'd have had universal encrypted email in 1999. (I'm stipulating that anything Protonmail does actually, you know, works. I have no idea if it does. Why bother? Encrypted email isn't going anywhere. The track record on things like this is quite bad.)

In 99, webmail providers were nearly all using squirrelmail or some self-invented thing and people were using offline mail clients, where GPG/PGG could have been an option. The terminals were behind, cloud computing ahead, and everyone knew your stuff is gone if your are careless and reinstall your computer, since POP3 was still a common thing. (Unlike IMAP, POP is usually used in a mode where no copies are left on t…

No. I don't know if it's a generational thing, but people on message boards today seem pretty convinced that Snowden invented concern over dragnet encryption. Get a copy of Applied Cryptography and thumb through it; it's shot through with the mindset that NSA (specifically: NSA) is reading all your mail. The 1990s were the decade of the cipherpunks, the Clipper Chip, the crypto wars, Echelon, and the hacker crackdown. More people encrypted their email then than do now.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#38

Do any of these keyservers perform email verification? It would go a good way towards some kind of verification that a user's GPG key corresponds to their email. Otherwise, anyone can generate a key with any email address and push it up to the servers. The standard way of verifying it (key-signing parties) is somewhat difficult.

They don't because GPG is ancient, and there was no proper way to do email validation back then. It is sort of better now, but still very hard to do.

If you have realistic worries that someone can intercept your email, then email validation of your GPG keys is not going to help.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#39
post #14
post #7

Encrypted email is pretty much over in 2017. The emerging consensus among experts is that it's not worth the trouble, or, worse, incapable of doing much more than generating a false sense of security. That's for a bunch of reasons: * An enormous installed base of clients that won't do encryption, meaning that at best you're attempting to tunnel encrypted messaging over an unencrypted transport. * A protocol that leak…

> But: why bother? Email is just one of dozens of messaging systems available to Internet users. No, it's not. It's the only widely available, decentralized system, with which you can send to anyone, if you know the address. None of the big ones is this open. XMPP tried to address this and failed; now Matrix is trying again.

I feel like Matrix may be the way forward; it also looks like it's possible to build an email-like interface on top of it. But currently, federated Matrix leaks metadata, so that's a problem.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#40

Do any of these keyservers perform email verification? It would go a good way towards some kind of verification that a user's GPG key corresponds to their email. Otherwise, anyone can generate a key with any email address and push it up to the servers. The standard way of verifying it (key-signing parties) is somewhat difficult.

Keybase.io is the best solution that has been put forward to solve this problem.
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