Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#111

Post by sveme » Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 2:25 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #72

wobbleblob wrote: post #61

After the round of elections in France and Netherlands this spring, and Germany this summer, Europe may or may not start disintegrating, depending on the outcome. Ms. le Pen may not win this time, but she will one day. A correctly timed scandal or major terrorist attack in the second round may sink her opponent. Moscow, London and Washington are hard at work with her, to make this happen. When she, or someone like he…

You seem to be operating under the belief that the disintegration of the EU started three weeks ago or something? It's been an ongoing saga for years. I mean, Brexit predates Trump, and Brexit itself is the result of years of pressures. I can see why you'd be so confused by the "strategy" if you think Trump is causing it, but he's reacting to it. And my assessment of the situation is the other way around; there's not…

If gp thinks a win by Le Pen or her counterpart in Germany is a given, he does not understand the election system in each respective country.

Living in the EU, I actually experience quite the opposite to what jerf is predicting: a reemergence of the EU as a passionate project after Brexit. People have taken the EU for granted for way too long, now it starts to emerge as an issue that is worth fighting for (check e.g., pulseforeurope.eu). Granted, there's also a nationalistic reemergence acting against the EU, but at least it's proponents are starting to fight back.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#112

Post by dagenleg » Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 2:25 PM UTC

madgar wrote: post #78

knz wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how this relates to US allies questioning the reliability of the US? Our allies (as a country not necessarily it's population) are usually involved in the same conflict and support the same worldview towards Russia. It's been widely reported that allies are increasingly military spending and reassessing defense strategies after comments/actions by Trump.

Widely reported by fake news! Any and all media with few exceptions* is the enemy of the United States now, of course they say those things. * InfoWars, RT and Breitbart excluded

Are you rabid?

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#113

Post by jerf » Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 2:26 PM UTC

quonn wrote: post #94

jerf wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be operating under the belief that the disintegration of the EU started three weeks ago or something? It's been an ongoing saga for years. I mean, Brexit predates Trump, and Brexit itself is the result of years of pressures. I can see why you'd be so confused by the "strategy" if you think Trump is causing it, but he's reacting to it. And my assessment of the situation is the other way around; there's not…

The UK was never a very convinced member of the EU, so Brexit is not a good example. But more importantly, the EU is not falling apart, it is merely facing a crisis. A pro-EU US administration could help to save it while Trump will likely accelerate it's decline.

If the EU, designed to be the counterbalance to the United States, is so delicate that it lives or dies based on the decisions of one man that doesn't even live there, it is falling apart.

There's no way around this; if it's gotten to that point of illness it has already proved itself extraordinarily weak. Blaming Trump for pushing it over the edge is just a politically-convenient privileging of the numerous other forces that must be pushing it over, and it's hard for me to believe that Trump is even in the top 10 reasons, especially given the lateness of his entry on the scene. Do we seriously believe that things would be so much better if Trump had not won? It's not like Obama particularly managed to hold it together or anything.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#114

Post by konart » Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 2:26 PM UTC

literallycancer wrote: post #29

Synaesthesia wrote: post #6

Why does NATO still exist? It's existence was supposed to be to counter the Soviet threat. Now the threat is gone and NATO is still around. It shows that the Soviet excuse was just a pretext.

>Now the threat is gone Ukrainians, Georgians, Chechens and many others would disagree.

I won't touch Ukrainian and Georgian part, but Chechnya is out of context here, honestly.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#115

Post by DarkKomunalec » Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 2:26 PM UTC

wobbleblob wrote: post #61

After the round of elections in France and Netherlands this spring, and Germany this summer, Europe may or may not start disintegrating, depending on the outcome. Ms. le Pen may not win this time, but she will one day. A correctly timed scandal or major terrorist attack in the second round may sink her opponent. Moscow, London and Washington are hard at work with her, to make this happen. When she, or someone like he…

France, Netherlands, Germany, and the U.K. are all countries with large and growing immigrant populations. Seeing their countries 'taken over' by foreigners, people vote for parties promising to put a stop to it. Unfortunately, there are no pro-EU parties making those promises. Quite the opposite - they prefer to chastise their people for not wanting their countries to irreversibly change. So that's how you end up with this mess - I don't think prodding by the Americans had much to do with it.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#116

Post by justaman » Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 2:26 PM UTC

huxley wrote: post #58

fowlerpower wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really think a NATO ally can be hit? With a land war? You think the Republican Party would need to reassert, the same party that dragged us into two wars in the last 12 years? I have to respectfully disagree.

A political party that dragged the US into two wars with minor countries with insignificant military resources, both of which could be totally dominated with an air war. And the US still had terrible trouble trying to keeping those wars "won". Not exactly the same sort of conflicts and anyone who thinks they are comparable is a menace.

The US had problems "keeping those wars 'won'" because the US had to attempt to minimize civilian deaths. If there ever is an event where this isnt the case, you can bet it would be wrapped up in a few weeks.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#117

Post by raverbashing » Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 2:26 PM UTC

wobbleblob wrote: post #61

After the round of elections in France and Netherlands this spring, and Germany this summer, Europe may or may not start disintegrating, depending on the outcome. Ms. le Pen may not win this time, but she will one day. A correctly timed scandal or major terrorist attack in the second round may sink her opponent. Moscow, London and Washington are hard at work with her, to make this happen. When she, or someone like he…

I'll only say one thing: people outside of France are much more worried/supporting LePen than the ones inside it

In fact, anglophones have some trouble understanding the situation through the language barrier

She's getting "pumped up" through the Brexit/Trump wave, but don't assume it's the same thing

(though I am worried about the repercussions, if she gets elected, naturally)

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#118

Post by zzleeper » Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 2:28 PM UTC

fowlerpower wrote: post #2

This is somewhat overblown, there was a lot of talk about this as it became clear Trump was about to be elected. Yes Trump is stirring the pot a bit maybe to play Russia against China. Maybe it's to get Europe to spend a little more on NATO so the US doesn't fund the vast majority of that alliance and he can cut some spending there. Whatever the mind set is, not much has changed. The US and all of its allies are stil…

"Yes Trump is stirring the pot a bit maybe to play Russia against China. Maybe it's to get Europe to spend a little more on NATO"

I don't know in what world do you live, but you are just giving him too much credibility. It's as if you can't fathom him doing something bad in him.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#119

Post by gbog » Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 2:28 PM UTC

del82 wrote: post #38

daxfohl wrote: post #28

I keep thinking China could take the opportunity here to open up its own political system and really start competing against the US as a desired landing spot for US/EU tech/science grads, and other capable/interested young talent. In a play for "world dominance", this could be a prudent non-military move. It would force The West to reconsider the direction it's heading too.

I agree, but it would take more than political reform to make China an attractive landing spot. Pollution and food safety are also big problems, for example, to the extent that my spouse (who is Chinese) and I have discussed and rejected the idea of raising our children in China, independent of qualms about the political system.

Food issues is the very reason for me to raise my kids in China. They learn to use chopsticks before forks and knives. They eat rice daily and have no desert. I sometime had to literally tell my daughter: "if you do not eat this chocolate cake, I'll not give you more bone soup".

There is a very big food problem... in the US.

Also, there is a very annoying problem with people of other colors in the West. I do not want to have to tell my kids to be afraid of "some people" when I take the subway, but I also do not want them to be unsafe. This is another reason to avoid the West for raising kids. (Just one last: in Japan, parents are NOT allowed to take their kids to school, kids have to go by themselves. In the West this would be considered irresponsible. I want my kids to be happy, free and safe.)

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#120

Post by raverbashing » Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 2:28 PM UTC

DarkKomunalec wrote: post #115

wobbleblob wrote: post #61

After the round of elections in France and Netherlands this spring, and Germany this summer, Europe may or may not start disintegrating, depending on the outcome. Ms. le Pen may not win this time, but she will one day. A correctly timed scandal or major terrorist attack in the second round may sink her opponent. Moscow, London and Washington are hard at work with her, to make this happen. When she, or someone like he…

France, Netherlands, Germany, and the U.K. are all countries with large and growing immigrant populations. Seeing their countries 'taken over' by foreigners, people vote for parties promising to put a stop to it. Unfortunately, there are no pro-EU parties making those promises. Quite the opposite - they prefer to chastise their people for not wanting their countries to irreversibly change. So that's how you end up wi…

This is an issue. But it seems even the Europhiles are smarting up to it

It's easy to be "humanitarian" with somebody else's money and resources