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Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

bloomberg.com

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Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#61

Post by wobbleblob »

After the round of elections in France and Netherlands this spring, and Germany this summer, Europe may or may not start disintegrating, depending on the outcome.

Ms. le Pen may not win this time, but she will one day. A correctly timed scandal or major terrorist attack in the second round may sink her opponent. Moscow, London and Washington are hard at work with her, to make this happen. When she, or someone like her, wins in either France or Germany, the EU comes to an end.

It is very difficult for me to understand what strategic goal the new White House administration intends to achieve by disintegrating the EU and thereby pushing parts of it from the American to the Russian sphere of influence, but I'm sure they have thought this through very carefully.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#62

Post by [deleted] »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #7

While the article is probably correct about a partial withdrawal of the US from the world stage, it is leaving something out: in the USA, the military industrial complex is the largest 'special interest' lobbying the government. We spend almost as much on military as the rest of the world combined. As a US citizen and taxpayer, I am reluctantly for a multi-polar world. The reluctance comes from what I expect to be so…

[deleted]

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#63

Post by knz »

coldtea wrote: post #25
knz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US and all of its allies are still allies. This may be true but the actions of the Trump administration have many allies questioning how reliable the US is. That's not "stirring the pot" - it's potentially a significant shift in the world order and a decrease in how effective our foreign relations are. The public allegations and concern expressed by our allies and own intelligence agencies should give everyone…

> This may be true but the actions of the Trump administration have many allies questioning how reliable the US is. As compared to the actions of the previous administrations, like bombing in eastern Europe, invading several countries, and royally fucking up Middle East etc, while constantly pushing Russia in the corner in cold war like rhetoric (for doing 1/10 of what they did, and in its actual bordering countries…

I'm not sure how this relates to US allies questioning the reliability of the US? Our allies (as a country not necessarily it's population) are usually involved in the same conflict and support the same worldview towards Russia.

It's been widely reported that allies are increasingly military spending and reassessing defense strategies after comments/actions by Trump.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#64

Post by emodendroket »

grabcocque wrote: post #9
Synaesthesia wrote: post #6

Why does NATO still exist? It's existence was supposed to be to counter the Soviet threat. Now the threat is gone and NATO is still around. It shows that the Soviet excuse was just a pretext.

Let's just imagine that a newly-emboldened Putin decides to annex part of another European country, like he got away with over Ukraine. Let's say some Baltic state, like Estonia. Wouldn't you feel safer knowing that country was under the NATO umbrella?

I don't really feel safer knowing the US would go to war with a nuclear power over a bunch of Eastern European republics, no.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#66

Post by tiatia »

fowlerpower wrote: post #18
grabcocque wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's just imagine that a newly-emboldened Putin decides to annex part of another European country, like he got away with over Ukraine. Let's say some Baltic state, like Estonia. Wouldn't you feel safer knowing that country was under the NATO umbrella?

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that any country in the NATO umbrella being hit would lead to the United States retaliating decisively. President trump would be advised by the generals he knows more than that he has to go in front of the American people and let them know why he has to take the actions he is taking. Sending US troops into Europe. Believe me, there is zero doubt, if NATO is hit its game over. W…

"There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that any country in the NATO umbrella being hit would lead to the United States retaliating decisively."

How?

http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.com/2016/07/how-to-invad...

Also, do you know what the UdSSR "ax theory" was? Or the "ed-escalation" strategy of the 90ies?

Look at the map. The Baltic states can't be defended. At least not with the military that is there in the moment. Could they be taken back? Unlikely because Russia would immediately retaliate tactically (nuclear).

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#67

Post by alextheparrot »

bad_user wrote: post #36
alextheparrot wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a reason why Ukraine is not in NATO, which is because putting everyone under NATO does not necessarily mean everyone is safer.

Isn't Ukraine to blame for derailing the NATO membership? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations We are talking about a key component of the former Soviet Union, with a big chunk of their population being pro-Russia, as they share much of their history with Russia, so even before the soviets they were part of the Russian Empire and of the Kievan Rus' state. Don't get me wrong, I've very sympathe…

Sort of. Russia needed to annex Crimea prior to the Ukraine joining NATO, which was becoming more possible after the revolution in Ukraine. Russia didn't need to act prior because it isn't threatened if the Ukraine isn't looking towards joining NATO. Crimea is hugely important to Russia because of its port access, which is why Turkey is now becoming more important to Russia (If they have the Crimea ports, Turkey controls Mediterranean access). A parallel story for the Americans would be if China suddenly signed a military treaty with Panama, which means that they could presumably restrict sea access significantly.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#68

Post by tiatia »

tiatia wrote: post #40
Scarblac wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is the Soviet Union's continuation, and it still has a huge arsenal of nuclear weapons and is currently fighting in and occupying a European country. The threat isn't gone at all.

"is currently fighting in and occupying a European country." If Russia were fighting Ukraine, the war would be over in 1 week.

Why is this getting downvoted? Use your brains. Ok, I was wrong. Two weeks. Mea culpa

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/03/world/europe/ukraine-cris...

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#69

Post by spinchange »

zoner wrote: post #47
spinchange wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The reluctance comes from what I expect to be some chaos as the world shifts to a multi-polar world. As a fellow taxpayer, I just want to point out that another way to look at ROI on our military industrial complex is global stability safe for commerce which leads to things like being the world's reserve currency, having our debt viewed as the safest global asset class, etc. It strikes me as foolhardy to want to giv…

I almost fell off my chair. First of all, every operation the US army did so far was the cause of destabilisation. While the military industry is a huge business alone, it's causing harm everywhere else. The US traded stabile far east for oil (Afghanistan), now they are creating conflict to find a cause to grow the military economy.

>every operation the US army did so far was the cause of destabilisation.

The 20th & 21st centuries have seen thier share of blunders but our NATO partners and allies in Asia seem to still want an active United States presence. The post WWII liberal order hasn't been perfect but many would argue it was headed in the right direction, generally.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#70

Post by markhahn »

The US is just pouting, and it's shameful.

We need adults in the room, being thoughtful, pointing out, for instance, that withdrawing is not a form of strength, and only permits other countries (China) to fill the vacuum. The vote for DT was a nihilistic, anti-establishment moment from a demo that wants change but isn't willing to think about what kind of change.

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