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A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

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Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#421

Post by vidarh »

josteink wrote: post #136
vidarh wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is bizarre that we're now having to consider the type of preparation you previously would want to consider for places like China. I'm really not sure if I want to visit the US at all while Trump is in power. Not because I expect the chances of any severe problems are all that huge, but because the growing lack of predictability is just creating sufficient friction.

> I'm really not sure if I want to visit the US at all while Trump is in powe I don't fancy Trump anymore than the next guy, but this started long before he got elected. This is driven by the intelligence community for their own power grab and is 100% independent. It would be pushed through no matter who sat in the presidential seat. Let's just say that if you try to oppose it, in the current (intolerant liberal) pol…

I agree it started before that. The difference is the lack of predictability under Trump. There's no doubt China is still far more authoritarian, for example, but it's government is fairly predictable.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#422

Post by mysticmarvel »

morgante wrote: post #211
koolba wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll protect myself by refusing. They can detain me for as long as they want. I'll fight it in court, because I am a US citizen and god dammit they do not have the right to warrantlessly review my encrypted communications. While I don't agree it's a good thing, I think they do have the right to detain you indefinitely and/or search whatever they damn well please if it's on your person. I don't think asking for a pa…

> I don't think asking for a password that doesn't unlock a device in your possession would pass muster, but unlocking your phone would. I don't think they can force me to give up my PIN. Not even a court can do that. My rights as a citizen are indeed less, in that they can detain me in an attempt to force compliance. The thing is that it's never been fully tested. In all the cases I've reviewed, either the person re…

Do you have a job or family? How long would the former keep you employed? How long would the latter last without your support? Could you afford legal fees without employment?

It's cool to say these things, but the system is weighted against protest. You must be ready to sacrifice everything for your principles.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#423

Post by vidarh »

civilian wrote: post #80
vidarh wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is bizarre that we're now having to consider the type of preparation you previously would want to consider for places like China. I'm really not sure if I want to visit the US at all while Trump is in power. Not because I expect the chances of any severe problems are all that huge, but because the growing lack of predictability is just creating sufficient friction.

We've been searching phones at the US border long before Trump: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/11/30... You are right to be outraged, but you are wrong to be fearful of Trump. You need to be fearful and angry at the government, regardless of who's the President.

You miss the part where my concern about Trump is the lack of predictability, as evidenced by the sudden travel ban.

I can deal with an authoritarian government as a visitor if I know what to avoid while visiting. Not so if the rules can change at the whim of someone who seems unstable.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#424

Post by mysticmarvel »

wheelerwj wrote: post #359
suprgeek wrote: post #22

The crux of the matter is here: More importantly, travelers are not legally required to unlock their devices, although agents can detain them for significant periods of time if they do not.... and here: The document given to Bikkannavar listed a series of consequences for failure to offer information that would allow CBP to copy the contents of the device. “I didn’t really want to explore all those consequences,” he…

first a citizen has to be well enough connected to even get that kind of help. second, you need to let your connections know you need the help. third, your still going to take a severe financial and emotional beating. so sure, its not okay that this is happening. but not everyone is in a position to standup.

Hire a lawyer with a "dead man" instruction to instigate such action if he's not informed otherwise within 48 hours. Keep money for legal fees in escrow for that purpose. Shouldn't be difficult to set up.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#425

Post by vidarh »

keithnz wrote: post #153
vidarh wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is bizarre that we're now having to consider the type of preparation you previously would want to consider for places like China. I'm really not sure if I want to visit the US at all while Trump is in power. Not because I expect the chances of any severe problems are all that huge, but because the growing lack of predictability is just creating sufficient friction.

pretty sure this is common in many countries. I know here in NZ they have had that right. Though, there was a bit of a backlash against that and they (government) were looking at changing so that there are reasonable grounds for search. Quick search seems to indicate UK and Australia is similar.

That is true, and while it is bad, a large part of the difference is to what extent it is likely to affect you as a regular visitor. The US has always been stricter than most places in my experience - I've gotten far more scrutiny on entering the US than China, or anywhere else other than perhaps Canada.

But what has changed is the predictability and the extent of use of these types of powers.

I used to feel safe that I would not get taken aside and have to deal with this type of thing, but now I see no reason to any more, because there seems to be no reason to assume that the rules won't suddenly change overnight.

On entering the UK on the other hand, I still feel reasonably safe that though I know they can, the odds that they will are extremely low.

It used to be that I'd consider what to clean off my laptop before entering places like China. Now I'm not sure I'll even want to bring my regular laptop to the US.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#426

Post by vidarh »

contras1970 wrote: post #60
vidarh wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is bizarre that we're now having to consider the type of preparation you previously would want to consider for places like China. I'm really not sure if I want to visit the US at all while Trump is in power. Not because I expect the chances of any severe problems are all that huge, but because the growing lack of predictability is just creating sufficient friction.

It's only bizarre because we've been brainwashed in our youth years into thinking highly of USA, and our adult selves still mourn the loss of simple ethical compass, but that was always only imaginary.

I don't think I've been brainwashed much with that respect - I spent my youth involved in left wing political organizations that just a few years earlier would have barred me from entry to the US, to the point that I called the US embassy to check before my first entry (they stopped caring after the Soviet Union collapsed), and that means there's almost certainly a file on me with Norwegian security services. I've been highly critical of US governments most of my life.

The reason I find it bizarre is that I've visited the US about two dozen times over many years, and while I know there are plenty of issues for many visitors, it used to be fairly predictable who would get stopped, and I used to feel safe that I would not get pulled aside and face more invasive questioning or searches.

As I've noted elsewhere, part of what is changing is that it appears this predictability is out of the window: Things like NASA employees stopped or how a few days ago a former Norwegian Prime Minister travelling on a diplomatic passport was stopped. And so.

In a way, I suppose, I get to finally experience the uncertainty people from less favoured countries and/or darker skinned/with a muslim sounding name have dealt with for much longer. That is perhaps the only benefit of this mess: It's finally affecting groups of people that may cause it to become politically untenable over time.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#427

Post by wheelerwj »

mysticmarvel wrote: post #424
wheelerwj wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

first a citizen has to be well enough connected to even get that kind of help. second, you need to let your connections know you need the help. third, your still going to take a severe financial and emotional beating. so sure, its not okay that this is happening. but not everyone is in a position to standup.

Hire a lawyer with a "dead man" instruction to instigate such action if he's not informed otherwise within 48 hours. Keep money for legal fees in escrow for that purpose. Shouldn't be difficult to set up.

dude, less than 60% of people have $1,000 in their savings account. retaining a lawyer just in case is entirely out of the question.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#428

Post by raverbashing »

justin wrote: post #392
mozumder wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct that you pretty much have no rights at the border. The moment you step outside the US, you can be killed by US a drone strike, or the CPB agent can simply shoot you if they wish. It's a broken hole in our system that needs to change, but don't expect any change for at least 2-4 years.

>Why didn't Obama do anything about it? Responding to the above, Obama did do something: he presided over the first extrajudicial assassination of a US citizen by drone strike.

One that pledged allegiance to a foreign "state" that engages in violence?

I fail to see the problem

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#429

Post by koolba »

manarth wrote: post #305
morgante wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think asking for a password that doesn't unlock a device in your possession would pass muster, but unlocking your phone would. I don't think they can force me to give up my PIN. Not even a court can do that. My rights as a citizen are indeed less, in that they can detain me in an attempt to force compliance. The thing is that it's never been fully tested. In all the cases I've reviewed, either the person re…

"I don't think they can force me to give up my PIN. Not even a court can do that." Meanwhile, on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629728

That's for contempt of court. If a judge thinks (effectively in his sole discretion) that you're in contempt of court, they can sentence you to whatever they'd like for as long as they'd like. It's purposely vague and powerful because it's meant to be used to punish the most heinous of acts: those against the court.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#430

Post by jaredklewis »

raverbashing wrote: post #428
justin wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why didn't Obama do anything about it? Responding to the above, Obama did do something: he presided over the first extrajudicial assassination of a US citizen by drone strike.

One that pledged allegiance to a foreign "state" that engages in violence? I fail to see the problem

The fifth amendment is of course broad, but is it so broad that the president signing a piece of paper can be considered due process?

Even if everyone has perfect intentions (doubtful), you need checks and balances to prevent human error.

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