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Replacing butter with vegetable oils does not cut heart disease risk (2016)

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Re: Replacing butter with vegetable oils does not cut heart disease risk (2016)

#101

Post by adwn »

sedachv wrote: post #61
a3n wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's an animal product For which you don't kill the animal. > with the obvious ethics problems This may or may not be "obvious" decades or more in the future, but I think people who hold this idea are in the minority at the moment. > cow methane Point taken.

> For which you don't kill the animal. Milk cows are continually raped for the duration of their lives: http://www.humanemyth.org/happycows.htm

> Milk cows are continually raped for the duration of their lives

This is misleading and utter bullshit (no pun intented). By that reasoning, every routine examination at the gynecologist or proctologist would constitute rape.

We have no reason to suspect that a cow feels "raped" during artificial insemination, or anything more than slight physical discomfort.

Re: Replacing butter with vegetable oils does not cut heart disease risk (2016)

#102

Post by icantdrive55 »

thomasfoster96 wrote: post #52
TheBiv wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congratulations on your weight loss! Separately, I don't know if I understand your point. To me you are saying that because the grey matter in our brains is made of cholesterol that means we should eat more cholesterol and your recommendation for how to get more cholesterol is by using grass fed butter. Did I correctly state your point?

I think the point was that most of the health-conscious general public has the mindset that fat is the enemy and that things like cholesterol should be avoided at (almost) all costs. The reality is that you can have a diet that is relatively high in fat and still lose weight, just as you can have a diet that is low in fat and still put on weight. As for cholesterol, it isn’t a toxin that should be eradicated from you…

Your liver makes cholesterol, if absent in diet. It also makes a lot of cholesterol, in some people, when they are under stress.

Re: Replacing butter with vegetable oils does not cut heart disease risk (2016)

#103

Post by zurn »

clort wrote: post #67
belorn wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A drive to a store to buy oil has a larger co2 footprint than the butter producing cow. That make the butter eating cyclist a more ethical person than a oil buying driver, if we are going to argue co2 footprints.

I don't wish to argue (I'm a butter eating cyclist after all!) but this seems to be selective, since cows are more known for producing methane than co2 ?

That's the rationale for the concept of CO2e, the amount of CO2 that is equivalent to the emission. So emitting 1 kg of CO2 and 1 kg of a GHG that is 2x as potent as CO2 would be expressed as emissions of "3 kg CO2e".

Re: Replacing butter with vegetable oils does not cut heart disease risk (2016)

#104

Post by boothead »

Xdafjgneoiwe wrote: post #60
brotherAB wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grey matter in your brain is mostly cholesterol. I've personally lost 10 pounds in 10 days eating a high fat, low carb diet, with light excercise about 3 days a week. Kerrygold is my #1 choice for butter, because it comes from grass-fed cows.

The problem with ketogenic diets is not the weight loss. The diet works for weight loss, that is undisputed. The problems are in the longer term with elevated cholesterol and increasing insulin resistance. Example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24703903 There's however tons of this. Most keto bloggers will try to tell you that increasing LDL-C is okay for different reasons (depending on who you read). That is h…

I thought that LDL-P had been determined to be a more reliable indicator of heart disease risk? Also hasn't heard of insulin resistance as an effect of ketogenic diets... What's the mechanism for that, do you know?

Re: Replacing butter with vegetable oils does not cut heart disease risk (2016)

#105

Post by thomasfoster96 »

Xdafjgneoiwe wrote: post #68
thomasfoster96 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point was that most of the health-conscious general public has the mindset that fat is the enemy and that things like cholesterol should be avoided at (almost) all costs. The reality is that you can have a diet that is relatively high in fat and still lose weight, just as you can have a diet that is low in fat and still put on weight. As for cholesterol, it isn’t a toxin that should be eradicated from you…

That may be so. But it's undisputed (aside from most keto blogs) that an increase in serum cholesterol and especially LDL-C increases the risk of heart disease. Studies show that you generally need a level of < 150 mg/dL to avoid heart disease. That's quite a bit below the average "normal" level. But today's average is NOT physiologically optimal.

> Studies show that you generally need a level of My point was that people see the “no cholesterol” message and start eliminating cholesterol from their diet...but then they end up replacing all the sources of fat in their diet with carbohydrates, or in some cases end up not getting enough of some nutrients which are often found in foods that are relatively high in cholesterol (e.g. iron or calcium).

The message about cholesterol should be more nuanced - less “don’t eat cholesterol”, more “don’t consume more than X mg”.

Re: Replacing butter with vegetable oils does not cut heart disease risk (2016)

#106

Post by jazoom »

nmerouze wrote: post #35
tluyben2 wrote: post #4

How about olive oil? The oils they name there already got a bad rap in the press here for not being very good for you. But olive oil persists. Also; you have to wonder about these tests... Anecdotal, but too many times I see people take cola light, a light sugar substitute for their tea and veg oil based butter with their 3000 kcal burger & fries & chocolate sunday. Also, the more I read up about it, I think stress i…

Stress makes you lost tons of vitamins and minerals. Eating whole foods as opposed to processed foods is important, but I agree reducing stress and exercising is more important.

> Stress makes you lost tons of vitamins and minerals.

Source?

Re: Replacing butter with vegetable oils does not cut heart disease risk (2016)

#107

Post by lawless123 »

hollander wrote: post #83
brotherAB wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grey matter in your brain is mostly cholesterol. I've personally lost 10 pounds in 10 days eating a high fat, low carb diet, with light excercise about 3 days a week. Kerrygold is my #1 choice for butter, because it comes from grass-fed cows.

What I've heard, all diets work. And they work because they let you focus on what you eat, and they let you eat less energy. The problem is what happens in the long term. If you regain your weight, you're worse off. When you eat less, the body adapts by working more energy efficient. So you eat 10% less, meaning the body can use only 90% of the normal energy supply. It react by using only 85%, storing that extra 5% i…

Citations?

>"It react by using only 85%, storing that extra 5% in case things get worse later on. So the body expects that later on, supply could drop to 70% or much less. Then those stored 5% are really useful."

This doesn't sound right.

Re: Replacing butter with vegetable oils does not cut heart disease risk (2016)

#108

Post by achamayou »

Xdafjgneoiwe wrote: post #85
lngnmn wrote: post #81

It obviously does not because there are whole populations, such as Tibetans, who consume butter on daily basis and are still alive and well, without any cardiovascular epidemic. What is a risk, by the way? How it is defined, apart from a personal lifestyle, diet, habits, current set of disorders and chronic illnesses of a particular person? It is a likelihood? An average of some imagined population of which some non-…

I do not think you can generalize from Tibetans or other populations. That is because those rural populations often have a much healthier diet than the standard american diet. More vegetables, more fiber, less animal products in general. To say that this obviously shows that butter cannot be that bad is just not true. You are right in one point: If the only thing you eat is butter with your veggies then you do not ha…

Actually the typical Tibetan diet is heavy on grain, meat and dairy.

Re: Replacing butter with vegetable oils does not cut heart disease risk (2016)

#109

Post by _0w8t »

awjr wrote: post #98
Xdafjgneoiwe wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think you can generalize from Tibetans or other populations. That is because those rural populations often have a much healthier diet than the standard american diet. More vegetables, more fiber, less animal products in general. To say that this obviously shows that butter cannot be that bad is just not true. You are right in one point: If the only thing you eat is butter with your veggies then you do not ha…

I think we focus on diet over environment too much. It isn't just what you eat but how you get around that is vital to tackling the cardiovascular epidemic. The only evidence that I currently have available is the Netherlands. The only western country to have a reducing obesity index, by 2030, predicted to be 8.5% down from 10%. Their diet is a very typical western diet. However their transport system and their urban…

In Netherlands it is common to have rather cold temperatures in houses even if people can afford to pay for warmth. And cold requires body to spend much more energy that is coming directly from burning body fat unless one shivering from cold.

In fact if one wants to loose like 10 kilos quickly, just climb to Everest. Most of that weight will be spent on body heating, not muscular work.

That also explains why butter does not harm people in Tibet. It is not stored as body fat and goes directly into body heat.

Re: Replacing butter with vegetable oils does not cut heart disease risk (2016)

#110

Post by mrskeltal »

dang wrote: post #15
DrScump wrote: post #2

blogspam of: http://news.unchealthcare.org/news/2016/april/did-butter-get... (from April 2016) ADDENDUM: It was also covered in The Atlantic at the time, for a more general audience: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/04/is-vegeta...

Ok, we changed the URL from http://sciencebulletin.org/archives/460.html to the Atlantic article you mentioned, since it gives better context. (We won't change the title because of the Betteridge trigger.)

What's the Betteridge trigger?
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