Live data from Hacker News

Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

arstechnica.com

331–340 of 504 posts

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you make the mistake of thinking that people oppose all state violence. Many people approve of some state violence in the name of maintaining societal order, but oppose torture. And I would posit that coercive incarceration is a form of torture. It is a mistake to believe that people are ideologically consistent. And I would be hard pressed to believe that torture is not more extreme or less legitimate than o…

Thank you. That pretty much sums up what I was getting at. I understand the need for violence when one man attacks me or my family. And I understand the need for violence when one man attacks any human around me. These people break the Golden Rule and remove themselves from its binding contract of being treated equally. BUT, they still deserve to be treated fairly. Sometimes, even you can get them to see the error of…

This is just a very abstract way to say that you don't like some of the things that the state has characterized as crimes. That's fine, and you can utilize the organs of representative democracy to make your will on that point known (though a world where only violent crimes are recognized, like you're suggesting, is not usually considered appealing).

However, attempting to trivialize the issue by abstracting it out to "giving a variable to a mathematical algorithm" is not persuasive. Any sort of cooperation could be extrapolated to a similar point of abstraction that makes it sound absurd; in fact, furnishing a physical key to a physical lock could be described with no modification to your terms. In that case, you're ultimately asking for the pattern needed to actuate the pins such that they stick up in the lock mechanism and cause it to disengage. That's just "providing a variable to an algorithm"; the physical key itself is an implementation detail.

If you do not believe the court should have the power to compel some types of individual cooperation with the police, you should take that up with your local legislator. The Fifth Amendment itself provides no such protection. It prohibits the government's usage of only a very specific tactic: mandatory testimonial self-incrimination. Allowing the police to execute warrants and complying with lawful orders pursuant to the state's interest in enforcing its laws is not testimony.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the current status on §§ 1021-1022 from the 2012 NDAA bill? [1] Did that become law as it was written, and is it still active? It made provisions for the US military to indefinitely detain US citizens without due process. I've found these things difficult to keep track of frankly, with so many egregious laws from just the last ten years. [1] https://www.aclu.org/news/president-obama-signs-indefinite-d...

Obama quietly signed the following in January: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/294...

Quietly? is that a necessary or even applicable verb here? It's public record, he was the President of the United States, and it's a major budgetary act for the biggest military in the world and covered by hundreds of news agencies. Are you quite sure he signed it quietly?

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A possible answer to the first question: Alice is not compelled to provide the key. She is compelled to decrypt the drive. Obviously she can't do that without Bob. Alice is screwed and will spend the rest of her life in prison. Yes, and in this scenario she would not be held in contempt, so your hypothetical does not apply. You can only be held in contempt for refusing to comply with court orders, not for the failu…

From the article: "Rawls, the government argues, (PDF) "repeatedly asserts that the All Writs Act order requires him to divulge his passcodes, but he is incorrect: the order requires no testimony from [Rawls], and he may keep his passcodes to himself. Instead, the order requires only that [Rawls] produce his computer and hard drives in an unencrypted state.""

That's like being forced to translate your own notebook written in code.

Not my problem, get your own codebreakers to do it.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A possible answer to the first question: Alice is not compelled to provide the key. She is compelled to decrypt the drive. Obviously she can't do that without Bob. Alice is screwed and will spend the rest of her life in prison. Yes, and in this scenario she would not be held in contempt, so your hypothetical does not apply. You can only be held in contempt for refusing to comply with court orders, not for the failu…

From the article: "Rawls, the government argues, (PDF) "repeatedly asserts that the All Writs Act order requires him to divulge his passcodes, but he is incorrect: the order requires no testimony from [Rawls], and he may keep his passcodes to himself. Instead, the order requires only that [Rawls] produce his computer and hard drives in an unencrypted state.""

That does not change the parent's point – he is in contempt for refusing to comply, not for being unable to comply. Contempt must be willful: https://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-753-el...

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#336
"The authorities say it's a 'foregone conclusion' that illicit porn is on those drives. But they cannot know for sure unless Rawls hands them the alleged evidence that is encrypted with Apple's standard FileVault software."

Then it ain't a "foregone conclusion". If it was, they wouldn't need him to unlock the drives; they could prosecute him with the evidence they used to arrive upon that "foregone conclusion".

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#337
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A possible answer to the first question: Alice is not compelled to provide the key. She is compelled to decrypt the drive. Obviously she can't do that without Bob. Alice is screwed and will spend the rest of her life in prison. Yes, and in this scenario she would not be held in contempt, so your hypothetical does not apply. You can only be held in contempt for refusing to comply with court orders, not for the failu…

There's no observable difference between inability to produce a result and refusing to produce a result. How do they know he didn't just forget the password? Or that the password was recorded somewhere that he no longer has access to? After sitting in jail for many months, it is very easy to forget a password that you no longer use regularly.

There's also no directly observable difference between killing with or without intent, which is why we have murder trials. The ability to decrypt data can be inferred from the surrounding circumstances, which is what happened here[1]:

> The defendant did not testify at the hearing and did not offer any other evidence or testimony in support of his contention that memory failure prevented him from complying with the court's order. On September 14, 2015, the court issued an order granting the government's motion, App. 6-10, finding that Doe was engaged in a “deliberate ruse” in claiming memory failure as to the external hard drives and that he intentionally disobeyed the court's orders directing him to decrypt the devices.

[1] Government brief, p 12: https://arstechnica.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/fedsrawls....

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#338
post #206

I have a question... Suppose the suspect Alice only has a portion of the key. Someone else (Bob...) has the remaining key bits. Alice is busted, and 'compelled to give the key', and DOES provide her portion of the key. Bob is never found. Then Alice would be indefinitely imprisoned, even if she would have actually complied with the court order. It seems unethical, to me. Bonus question: Alice pretends that Bob exists…

> A possible answer to the first question: Alice is not compelled to provide the key. She is compelled to decrypt the drive. Obviously she can't do that without Bob. Alice is screwed and will spend the rest of her life in prison. Yes, and in this scenario she would not be held in contempt, so your hypothetical does not apply. You can only be held in contempt for refusing to comply with court orders, not for the failu…

I wonder if he had an encryption scheme that deleted the data in the event of n password failures and also something of legal value like bitcoins on the drive. Perhaps, then he could argue that knowingly attempting to log in using potentially incorrect passwords constitutes undue harm.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#339
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it seems there is good case law to show that in fact suspected cannot be forced to open a combination lock, as it falls under fifth amendment protection. They can, however, be compelled to provide a key if it is a key-based lock. This applies similarly to biometric-based locks. It's hard to believe that an encryption key is any different than a combination lock in this "encryption is like a safe" metaphor. Rel…

Could it just come from our particular choice of words? An encryption key sounds closer to a safe key than to a combination lock . A small broken analogy later, the judge rules that encryptions keys are keys, and the defendant may be compelled to provide them. Just because we called it a a "key", instead of the more accurate "combination", or "code".

Law can be difficult because tiny nuances like this can sometimes matter. It's usually not because judges are too inept to comprehend the subject matter, but because they feel that the laws still on the books require them to undertake a stringent interpretation that has an effect most people would consider undesirable. In some highly technical cases, while judges can generally be taught the meaning, their unfamiliarity with the subject matter may cause them not to fully appreciate the effects and ramifications of some of their rulings.

Legal professionals tend to be technically minded and frequently accept conclusions that do not serve the interests of justice (except in the theoretical, abstract context of a perfectly-reflective, well-functioning republic) in order to comply with a strict reading of the text of the law.

That's a double-edged sword. It provides some protection against judges who would "legislate from the bench" (i.e., change the effects of the law based on their personal values instead of the values the community has codified through the legislature), but it also frequently restrains what would be considered a rational and fair implementation of the law in order to serve an ideological commitment to the particularities of wording.

Pretty much everything involved in attempting to create a generally applicable, fair legal system is a delicate balance. Too much familiarity with a subject and the judge can be accused of bias; too little and the judge may not understand the impact of their rulings. Too much commitment to legal wording can lead to some plainly undesirable conclusions where the real people and businesses before the judge become the collateral damage of a thought exercise, but insufficient commitment to implementing the community's values instead of one's own can lead to judges whose influence becomes oppressive or despotic. It comes down to needing judges with good judgment.

Constitutional reforms may be reasonable to modernize the system to be more responsive to the community's values and less dependent on the technicalities of outdated verbiage (the All Writs Act, which is referenced in this case, was codified into law 227 years ago), now that we live in an age of instant global communication and industrialism. Many such reforms could happen at the state level.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#340
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a private activity, it directly supports an industry of violence against children

This is a tenuous argument at best, even more so considering the protocol in question is freenet . Sure it's possible to force a commercial model onto any system, but I'd think freenet would be an especially terrible way to monetize. (And "industry" - seriously??) Furthermore, there is presumably enough existing child pornography out there to satiate any viewer for their entire life. Perhaps increasing access to it i…

I've seen articles about people using CGI as bait to fight it.
Post reply on HN