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Plan B - Skip College

nytimes.com

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Re: Plan B - Skip College

#61

Post by starkfist »

timr wrote: post #58
starkfist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're lucky if you encountered many intellectuals as an undergrad. But actually I think you're right - skilled white collar jobs will die out before skilled or unskilled "blue collar" jobs do. People always will need a broken car fixed, or a wall in their house repaired. The world doesn't necessarily need brand managers and analysts. Most think-work jobs in offices (which college is preparing you for) are non-essent…

I encountered a lot of intellectuals as an undergrad, actually -- and I didn't go to a particularly great school. An undergraduate education is worth what you make of it. If you hang out with idiots, you'll find idiots. Everywhere. But if you're the type of person who would succeed without a degree, you'll have far more opportunity if you can finish college. It's a fact. Also, you've entirely missed the point of what…

I didn't miss your point, I just didn't re-iterate it. I am in agreement with you, but I am pessimistic. I think we are in trouble.

Regarding intellectuals at university, I also met a handful, and I bet the school I went to was much worse than yours. That said, it seems hard to argue that advanced education in the USA is promoted as a place for intellectual advancement. At best, university is marketed as a way to get a better job. At worst, it's the place where Girls Go Wild.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#62

Post by timr »

starkfist wrote: post #61
timr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I encountered a lot of intellectuals as an undergrad, actually -- and I didn't go to a particularly great school. An undergraduate education is worth what you make of it. If you hang out with idiots, you'll find idiots. Everywhere. But if you're the type of person who would succeed without a degree, you'll have far more opportunity if you can finish college. It's a fact. Also, you've entirely missed the point of what…

I didn't miss your point, I just didn't re-iterate it. I am in agreement with you, but I am pessimistic. I think we are in trouble. Regarding intellectuals at university, I also met a handful, and I bet the school I went to was much worse than yours. That said, it seems hard to argue that advanced education in the USA is promoted as a place for intellectual advancement. At best, university is marketed as a way to get…

"I didn't miss your point, I just didn't re-iterate it. I am in agreement with you, but I am pessimistic. I think we are in trouble."

Fair enough. Sorry for misunderstanding. I was/am mainly replying to the general anti-intellectual attitude on this thread, but I did misinterpret the tone of your remark (I was under the impression that you thought it was okay that white-collar jobs might be diminishing).

"it seems hard to argue that advanced education in the USA is promoted as a place for intellectual advancement. At best, university is marketed as a way to get a better job. At worst, it's the place where Girls Go Wild."

I think that the marketing strongly depends on the school, but yes, some schools do focus on promoting the career training aspect of college. Nevertheless, my feeling is that (with the exception of schools like ITT and the University of Phoenix) the marketing is distinct from the experience. Once you're in college, you've got huge opportunities for learning that you wouldn't otherwise.

The people in this forum who dismiss college as an unnecessary affectation of the elite scare me. It's one thing to be philosophical about the value of a philosophy degree, but it's totally another to assume that college is useless because you can always get work as a plumber (or a coder). I don't think they realize how much the well-being of plumbers (and coders) depends on the people who create new knowledge and technology at universities.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#63

Post by stretchwithme »

hristov wrote: post #54
stretchwithme wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

absolutely. if people paid market rates for education loans, you'd see an increased focus on rate of return. And we'd also see an increased focus from schools on quality instruction in well paid fields and less spending on recreational facilities. For-profit schools may not be as well regarded, but remember that they have to pay taxes while the others don't. And many get a lot of other subsidies as well. So the real…

I am not sure I agree with that. I like subsidized loans. They should just be more careful that the loans go to worthwhile schools and degrees.

they'd be more careful if they personally were taking on the real debt that makes the subsidies possible. instead, others are forced to take it on because they'll be stuck paying off a massive $13 trillion national debt.

its time people took responsibility for their own choices.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#64

Post by brianobush »

take 100 individuals, 50 go to college, and the other 50 don't. 10 years out, measure the financial stability (cash flow, net worth, etc) of both groups. I guarantee those that went to college fair better. Not saying that money is everything, but it is a powerful enabler.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#65

Post by gaius »

natrius wrote: post #59
gaius wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK but where did your parents, or their parents, or their parents get the money in the first place? There are no shortage of examples of people from humble beginnings who're self-made millionaires, and people born into every privilege who squandered it all.

I don't understand where you're going with that argument. It still makes children victims of circumstance.

If everyone is a "victim of circumstance" as you put it, there would be no social mobility at all.

But there is, so you are wrong.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#66

Post by skinnymuch »

lsc wrote: post #55
petercooper wrote: post #14

All well and good if it's all about smarts and money, but the social aspects of having to spend four years collaborating and tolerating your peers cannot be underestimated. People who've gone through four years of college are, typically, well-rounded in their general knowledge and social skills, more liberal and more tolerant. Colleges don't just take in kids and output kids with knowledge. They turn kids into a cert…

speaking as someone who didn't go to college, I kindof agree. I mean, I don't know if I agree with the 'more tolerant' bit, but certainly, more liberal and better able to get along with other people who have college degrees, more likely to understand (or at least pretend to understand) modern art, etc... There are also other, harder to define social changes. The most negative side of this is that I know people who ea…

Your last line - seems more like insecurity to me than anything else.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#67

Post by lsc »

skinnymuch wrote: post #66
lsc wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

speaking as someone who didn't go to college, I kindof agree. I mean, I don't know if I agree with the 'more tolerant' bit, but certainly, more liberal and better able to get along with other people who have college degrees, more likely to understand (or at least pretend to understand) modern art, etc... There are also other, harder to define social changes. The most negative side of this is that I know people who ea…

Your last line - seems more like insecurity to me than anything else.

Maybe. In some ways, I'm very proud to have as done as well as I have without school... in other ways I feel like a dumb hick around my co-workers. Hell, even half the people who work for me now went to school. So yeah, there is maybe some, ah, feelings of social inadequacy there, but I don't think that entirely invalidates my point.

Oh man, speaking of coming off like a hick, yesterday I took my new intern out to the co-lo (the last few days have been a flurry of hardware work) As usual, I stopped off at the local, excellent BBQ place (Sams BBQ; pretty close to my co-lo in San Jose) It was bluegrass night (I hadn't remembered this)

He commented "Wow, this is.... authentic" - I don't know if he thought I was going to tell him he had a 'purdy mouth' or what, but he was obviously pretty uncomfortable. He ended up getting his chicken sandwich 'to go'

The whole day probably wasn't going well for him. he wants to do software stuff, but circumstances dictated that hardware was the order of the day, so he got to follow me around in noisy environments while I tracked down obscure parts.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#68

Post by skinnymuch »

lsc wrote: post #67
skinnymuch wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last line - seems more like insecurity to me than anything else.

Maybe. In some ways, I'm very proud to have as done as well as I have without school... in other ways I feel like a dumb hick around my co-workers. Hell, even half the people who work for me now went to school. So yeah, there is maybe some, ah, feelings of social inadequacy there, but I don't think that entirely invalidates my point. Oh man, speaking of coming off like a hick, yesterday I took my new intern out to th…

Nice comment. Just to make sure we're on the same page here, my comment about the insecurity was aimed at people who are insulted when programming is compared to tradesman like work.

Based on your civility and overall personality if I was to meet you with no prior knowledge of your educational history I would assume you had a bachelors if not a graduate degree.

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#69

Post by lsc »

skinnymuch wrote: post #68
lsc wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. In some ways, I'm very proud to have as done as well as I have without school... in other ways I feel like a dumb hick around my co-workers. Hell, even half the people who work for me now went to school. So yeah, there is maybe some, ah, feelings of social inadequacy there, but I don't think that entirely invalidates my point. Oh man, speaking of coming off like a hick, yesterday I took my new intern out to th…

Nice comment. Just to make sure we're on the same page here, my comment about the insecurity was aimed at people who are insulted when programming is compared to tradesman like work. Based on your civility and overall personality if I was to meet you with no prior knowledge of your educational history I would assume you had a bachelors if not a graduate degree.

I am, ah, somewhat different in person. I met my current girlfriend on a mailing list. When we first met, she said "Wow, you a lot less articulate in person"

Re: Plan B - Skip College

#70

Post by skinnymuch »

lsc wrote: post #69
skinnymuch wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice comment. Just to make sure we're on the same page here, my comment about the insecurity was aimed at people who are insulted when programming is compared to tradesman like work. Based on your civility and overall personality if I was to meet you with no prior knowledge of your educational history I would assume you had a bachelors if not a graduate degree.

I am, ah, somewhat different in person. I met my current girlfriend on a mailing list. When we first met, she said "Wow, you a lot less articulate in person"

Hah. I might be the same way. A lot of times I realize I don't know how to pronounce words or that I've never said words verbally even though I use them all the time online.

Case in point: 'articulate'. I bet I've used it quite a bit online but nary a time in real life.

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