Below Deck: Filipinos make up nearly a third of all cruise ship workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Below Deck: Filipinos make up nearly a third of all cruise ship workers

#151

Post by lr4444lr » Sat, Feb 11, 2017, 8:22 PM UTC

kafkaesq wrote: post #111

traveling wrote: post #19

Newsflash: Life sucks anywhere when you're poor and uneducated. I worked as an independent Google contractor before for less than $11 an hour with very stringent rules, ever increasing performance requirements, no holidays, no sick pay, no nothing. If you're poor and uneducated you're disposable dirt anywhere these days, even though people would like you to think otherwise and it's obviously even worse in 3rd world c…

Newsflash: Life sucks anywhere when you're poor and uneducated. And abundant evidence indicates that (most) corporations will do everything within their power to take advantage of this fact, unless very strongly regulated.

Corporations maximizing profit to shareholders? Truly a headline grabbing evil.

Re: Below Deck: Filipinos make up nearly a third of all cruise ship workers

#152

Post by bbcbasic » Sat, Feb 11, 2017, 8:29 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #29

readhn wrote: post #13

This is why I am never ever going on a cruise ship (or any resort in Mexico, Dominican etc). Knowing that the guy serving you is basically a slave working for pennies while you are supposed to enjoy your vacation and relax- I couldn't, no thank you. What surprises me to this day is how little it costs to buy American congress. 1,000,000$ lobbying costs? That's less than a lot of houses in SF or NYC. Shouldn't it cost…

>This is why I am never ever going on a cruise ship [...] Knowing that the guy serving you is basically a slave I'm not doubting your sincerity and principles but I'd like to go beyond this particular injustice of cruise workers and understand how consumers reconcile all the "slave" inputs for the other products they buy. In the USA, many fruits and veggies are collected by cheap labor from Mexico.[1] In UK, the anal…

We don't need to give things up, just be willing to pay more for them or go without.

We pay 1000s for a car and don't complain. But we need cheap portable supercomputers?

What the price of something should be is as much psychology than anything else. Diamonds and gold are a case in point.

Re: Below Deck: Filipinos make up nearly a third of all cruise ship workers

#153

Post by ino » Sat, Feb 11, 2017, 8:30 PM UTC

rangibaby wrote: post #123

ino wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany doesn't, for example. You have private ensurance companies and you have to chose one. When things go bad, you bet the insurance company won't be on your side. It's all ok if you have a good job (IT or otherwise) that pays for the best, but for poorer people it sucks.

I don't mind Japan's system. You pay monthly to the government (about 10% of your income for a married couple with a child) then the government pays 70% of your medical bill out of that, no questions asked.

Do you have to pay if you're unemployed?

Re: Below Deck: Filipinos make up nearly a third of all cruise ship workers

#154

Post by chillwaves » Sat, Feb 11, 2017, 8:33 PM UTC

SamReidHughes wrote: post #146

hnbroseph wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

an american having a master's degree and getting low wages could mean they're indeed poor. a near-lifetime of non-dischargeable debt repayment.

They're clearly people who had choices in life.

That categorization encompasses what.. 98% of everyone?

Your bar for sympathy may be a bit high.

Re: Below Deck: Filipinos make up nearly a third of all cruise ship workers

#155

Post by allendoerfer » Sat, Feb 11, 2017, 8:34 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #101

tacostakohashi wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Financial planning", in the western sense of the phrase (saving currency, investing in stocks, mutual funds, life insurance, 401(k), and various other pieces of paper that require trust and courts to be worth anything) isn't actually a rational thing to do in emerging Asia (or, to the extent that it is now, that's very recent). We're talking about a country that was governed by a prolific kleptocrat (Ferdinand Marco…

Index funds, 401k and some stocks exist only in the USA. They don't exist in most of the western world (e.g. Europe). Please don't call that "western financial planning"

> Index funds, 401k and some stocks exist only in the USA.

I am not sure whether you are European making fun of the financial system of the USA or an American thinking Europe somehow lives in the stone age.

Of course we have those things. Also there are these things called stock exchanges, were even people from poor, underdeveloped nations like Norway, Switzerland, Denmark, Luxembourg, the Netherlands or Germany are allowed to buy stocks. Even fancy American ones.

Re: Below Deck: Filipinos make up nearly a third of all cruise ship workers

#156

Post by paulddraper » Sat, Feb 11, 2017, 9:32 PM UTC

alphonsegaston wrote: post #150

Kequc wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until we have enough skilled workers in the world where we are regularly pumping out robots that can perform menial labour there will always be a need for this type of worker. We live in a time where hyper robot production is not happening, we also live in a time where actually there is a absolutely horrendously massive number of these types of workers. What do you want to do about it? You want to put them all out of…

The "horrendously massive number of these types of workers" is the result of a violent imposition of a Capitalist ideology that masquerades as some inevitable, invisible, and inviolable logic. Robots and AI deployed by an oligarch class are just the newest incarnation of a truncheon waved in the face of the engineers who enable them. Better the poor be beaten with it than you. I say we change the trajectory of the fu…

This "nightmare" isn't an invention, it's the natural state.

Progress is bringing us closer meeting needs for everyone, instead dying in a cave when the snow got too high to hunter-gather.

Re: Below Deck: Filipinos make up nearly a third of all cruise ship workers

#157

Post by mdip » Sat, Feb 11, 2017, 9:41 PM UTC

cruiseguy wrote: post #128

mdip wrote: post #121

This read made me respect the cruise workers who have made my vacations so good over the years. About 13 years ago I took my first cruise, and from that point forward, about yearly or more, I cruise (though it's been two years since my last). I prefer Royal Caribbean (and Carnival is low on my list, though I've cruised with them many times). I always joke that it's the perfect vacation for geek decompression: it's on…

You do realize that the employees have to do this. They spend hours and hours in training where they're told to always smile and greet guest. It's like strippers. The companies are taking money out of the pockets of crew by considering the gratuity included. Giving them cash is the only way to make sure they actually are rewarded for their hard work, but make sure to not do it in front of management. Actuaries are do…

Of course -- If you've read anything about the industry (this article, in particular), it's very clear this is part of training and "a requirement" of the job. It's also a very strict requirement -- they fire people for failing to do the tiniest of things and I've heard stories (I'm not sure if they're true) that entire categories of staff were fired due to a small number of reviews that didn't land in the highest review category -- anything other than perfect is failure. Fill those things out, mark 'em high if you care about the staff, and write in the names of people who made things pleasant for you.

The point I was making there is that it's really impressive and a testament to the work ethic of the staff that it's done so well. You'd expect someone working under the condition of fear to do this "just well enough to not get fired" but I've never detected even the slightest hint that the attitudes of staff are not genuine (I'm not saying they are genuine, just that they're quite good at hiding that fact). The work ethic is, in a word, impressive.

As for tipping - I suggest catching them in the hallway on their way between shifts/responsibilities. Palm a sizeable bill and give it to them in a hand-shake. Do this on the day before debarkation, otherwise you risk obligating that person to feel like they need to "work it off" for you[0].

As for me, I cruise because it's inexpensive, but I plan for a big budget vacation[1]. I'm frugal by nature (4 kids, one income), so we end up way under budget without trying. After we had a long chat with a member of maintenance staff, we were touched by his kindness and circumstances, so we decided from that cruise forward to come home with the budget surplus spent this way and found it had a great effect of adding to the joy of our vacation.

[0] A gratuity is for something that was done, not something that is expected, later. The latter is a bribe. :o)

[1] Vacations are to fill a "need" to relax and it's hard to relax if you're spending your time worrying about how much you're spending, so we don't vacation until we have enough money to exceed what we expect to spend.

Re: Below Deck: Filipinos make up nearly a third of all cruise ship workers

#158

Post by senior_james » Sat, Feb 11, 2017, 9:42 PM UTC

dota_fanatic wrote: post #144

senior_james wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Something like cancer, with ct scans, chemo, radiation, surgery with a 1 week hospital stay, etc...can bankrupt you." Again, I will have to disagree. Do you have any actual experience with this or are you going to just give me more talking points.... My wife's sister went through stage 2 breast cancer over the past 2 years and she had her own insurance plan as well. After 4 major surgeries and 1 year of chemo, her t…

There is no single US healthcare system that someone can experience first-hand. There is a lot of variation from state to state. I take you haven't experienced the system as someone, say, making less than $25k/yr, in every single state, at various times of year (say 2 months before your deductible rolls over) with various kinds of conditions (acute, chronic, extremely rare, etc?), at various points in their careers (…

"There is no single US healthcare system that someone can experience first-hand. "

Sure there is. There aren't that many private insurance companies in the US and they all work similarly.

"I take you haven't experienced the system as someone, say, making less than $25k/yr, in every single state, at various times of year (say 2 months before your deductible rolls over) with various kinds of conditions (acute, chronic, extremely rare, etc?), at various points in their careers (if they can even claim to use that word)? And you've experienced this in a range of personal contexts?"

I feel like this is the 'no true scotsman' logical fallacy creeping into the conversation. You could say the same thing about every single healthcare system (or any large system) in the world: it's not the same for everyone.

..and by the way, my wife's sister makes $35K/year. Money has little to do with it.

"There are millions of Americans who can't afford $250/mo on top of food, rent, and transportation costs, working more than full-time hours spread across several jobs, all of which pay minimum wage in poor conditions that are bad for their bodies and with unpredictable scheduling."

You say that, but many people I know won't pay for healthcare, but pay more in booze, weed, and expensive electronics and services.

When I was single, I got bare-bones care for $75/month. This is as cheap as a cellphone plan. My premiums were high, but I wouldn't go bankrupt if I had major surgery. Many people can easily afford healthcare in this country. They choose to spend their money elsewhere.

I've traveled the world and the US has the richest poor people I've ever seen. Try living on less than $2/day with starving children.

Hospitals can't refuse anyone by law. We also have lots of systems, paid for by the taxpayers, to help people on low incomes get the care they need.

"In light of the reality of many, many people's experiences in the healthcare system that are contrary to your own, which are NOT hard to find, your comments comes across quite poorly."

Your comments come off as rather naive. No system is perfect and I can point to many instances of people getting terrible care in every other healthcare system as well.

You want to paint a hyperbolic picture that the US healthcare system will make you go bankrupt and you need to be rich to get care.

My point is that this just isn't true. It needs work, but it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

Re: Below Deck: Filipinos make up nearly a third of all cruise ship workers

#159

Post by LoonyBalloony » Sat, Feb 11, 2017, 10:01 PM UTC

edblarney wrote: post #136

traveling wrote: post #19

Newsflash: Life sucks anywhere when you're poor and uneducated. I worked as an independent Google contractor before for less than $11 an hour with very stringent rules, ever increasing performance requirements, no holidays, no sick pay, no nothing. If you're poor and uneducated you're disposable dirt anywhere these days, even though people would like you to think otherwise and it's obviously even worse in 3rd world c…

What Google was doing to you is immoral, and should be illegal. Yes, 'it stinks' to have low wages because one might not have much of an education - but there's absolutely no reason on earth not to have 'basic worker protections'. I generally don't like Unions, especially those that are entrenched - but we wouldn't need them if people were not so greedy. Google does this a lot, and I find it despicable that they take…

Didn't google recently remove the "do no harm" line from their mission statement or something?

Re: Below Deck: Filipinos make up nearly a third of all cruise ship workers

#160

Post by vacri » Sat, Feb 11, 2017, 10:15 PM UTC

aianus wrote: post #105

katzgrau wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd probably make the argument that it's an overemphasis on the principles of supply and demand (capitalism) that make one potentially worthless. If there are enough geographers with graduate degrees applying for the gig even at minimum wage pay, you pay them minimum wage. In the US (and let's be real, most of the world), capitalism trumps altruism (paying someone more than their market value because you're nice). We…

You see exploitation, I see a market signal to high schoolers and undergraduates telling them we have enough graduate-level geographers, encouraging them to pursue something else and eventually making us all more prosperous in the future.

Because as we know, high-schoolers are really good at labour-market analysis.