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H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

economist.com

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Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#401

Post by ismail-khan »

pg314 wrote: post #39
ismail-khan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another way to look at it: if restrictions on high skill tech immigration tighten, then tech companies that would have been founded in America will instead be founded elsewhere. This is more true of software than of any other industry, because software is built mostly with human capital which can cross borders fairly easily.

I agree with your conclusion (that tech companies will move), but don't agree with your reasoning. It is exactly the opposite. Capital crosses borders much more easily than human capital. There are all kinds of impediments for human capital moving (visas, lack of money for travel, ties to families and friends). That is why, if it becomes even harder (because of travel restrictions), that tech companies will move.

Upon further reflection, I think it's not so much about human vs physical capital (and I agree with your point), but about IT workers vs other types of workers.

If a company of 5 Indian software engineers is booted out of the US, they can get together anywhere else in the world and still develop a product to the same standard. By contrast, other workers have "stickier" skills that tie you to a specific country. An Indian aerospace engineer may find it hard to find work in India, for example.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#402

Post by blunte »

virmundi wrote: post #164
nottorp wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for some reason nobody's complaining about Western Europe immigrants taking US jobs...

It appears to be a difference between immigrant (with permanency) vs transient skills. There was a time when society needed itinerant skilled workers. Now we have the infrastructure to train, en masse, our workers. While skipping the training step is nice, hence the permanent workers, H1-Bs appear to bring mostly unskilled, or low skilled workers into the country under the banner of master masons, so to speak.

H1-B, as championed by Microsoft and embraced by many large companies, was clearly used as a tool to replace market wage tech employees with low wage immigrants. Microsoft's arguments before Congress were fully debunked, and many of us who have worked for two decades in US IT have seen the reality.

Plus, over the last 15 years as what we do with and demand from computing technology has expanded exponentially, the knowledge gap between management/hiring managers and IT workers has grown to the point where management often has no clue at all about how to spec a job or how to filter/evaluate a candidate. This has led us to the alphabet soup that is job specs - the "what did our last guy do before he quit? yeah put all that on the list of requirements" problem.

So it's not just an H1-B problem; it's much bigger. But it probably results in a feeling of futility on the part of hiring managers, leading them to think, "well since we're basically guessing at this hiring thing, we might as well hire the cheapest we can get."

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#403

Post by koolba »

adekok wrote: post #386
koolba wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> What's not democratic about optimizing need based upon projected tax revenue? Are we discriminating against "poor companies"? Would you classify companies that allow their employees to work remotely doing the same? > The unstated assumption in your questions seems to be that optimizing for revenue should be the #1 (or a high) priority for a government. > If so, why not just cut all social programs? They're expensi…

> Social programs aren't revenue, they're an expense. That's nit-picking. Social programs are negative revenue. If you want to maximize income, you can increase income, or decrease expenses. This is grade 5 math. > "Greater good" is a feel good (no pun intended) term that has no objective meaning. "Greater good" can be define to mean that it matches societies preference. i.e. long life, healthy life, whatever. If onl…

>> Social programs aren't revenue, they're an expense.

> That's nit-picking. Social programs are negative revenue.

No it's not nit-picking, it's basic accounting. If you want to maximize income, you can increase income, or decrease expenses.

Revenue impacts your top line gross. Expense impacts your bottom line net. Income != Revenue.

To use an extreme example, if I have $1M of expense and zero revenue, no matter how much expense I cut I'm not going to turn a profit as you can't go below zero. Conversely, if I have $0 of expense and $1M of revenue, I can continue to increase income by raising revenue.

> This is grade 5 math.

No it's Accounting 101.

> "Greater good" can be define to mean that it matches societies preference. i.e. long life, healthy life, whatever.

> If only the constitution defined greater good.. perhaps something about "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"?

It's not an objective measure though.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#404

Post by adekok »

koolba wrote: post #403
adekok wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Social programs aren't revenue, they're an expense. That's nit-picking. Social programs are negative revenue. If you want to maximize income, you can increase income, or decrease expenses. This is grade 5 math. > "Greater good" is a feel good (no pun intended) term that has no objective meaning. "Greater good" can be define to mean that it matches societies preference. i.e. long life, healthy life, whatever. If onl…

>> Social programs aren't revenue, they're an expense. > That's nit-picking. Social programs are negative revenue. No it's not nit-picking, it's basic accounting. If you want to maximize income, you can increase income, or decrease expenses. Revenue impacts your top line gross. Expense impacts your bottom line net. Income != Revenue. To use an extreme example, if I have $1M of expense and zero revenue, no matter how…

> To use an extreme example, if I have $1M of expense and zero revenue, no matter how much expense I cut I'm not going to turn a profit as you can't go below zero. Conversely, if I have $0 of expense and $1M of revenue, I can continue to increase income by raising revenue

Show me a government with zero revenue, or a government with zero expenses, and I'll believe you.

Until then, it's still nit-picking.

At the scale of governments, expenses == -revenue

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#406

Post by kls »

sjg007 wrote: post #379
Declanomous wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but you can easily reach a six figure salary in software or IT, and you'll essentially have been in the workforce for twice as long as the doctor if you retire at 65. How much you make really depends on your specialty as well. Cosmetic surgeons, anesthesiologists and radiologists make a lot more money than general practitioners. Pediatric anything does not make much money. Cosmetic surgeons make an absol…

That 6 figure IT salary is only recent AND doctors make 2-3x that.

My wife is a general medical provider, by the time we pay liability, malpractice, etc. etc. we end up making about the same. General practice (when compensating for overhead) provides about the same level income as senior level IT. Now granted that is out the door and IT you need at least a decade in to get to that salary but when balanced out for schooling required, you hit the same level of compensation at about the same time in life.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#407

Post by jlj »

monksy wrote: post #293
jlj wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people I've worked with came to the US on H1-B's sponsored by the big outsourcing firms, then they move to one of the above mentioned companes. Presumably they move to those companies for better pay and working hours. And they have processes in place to handle the H1-B transfers. There is a lot of prestige with landing a job at those companies too. It's not everyone who can do that though, these folks are the up…

> huge supply of people overseas wanting those jobs so that they can get their foot into the US and then find something better That's not really a good justification of claiming that the US Supply is more than what the current market holds. With that same arguement, a business could claim: Banana processing in Costa Rica costs $0.5/hr, so that means that we should have that as a ceiling in the US for the same job. It…

I interpreted it a different way, not a justification but rather one interpretation of the scenarios that are happening.

> But, at the end of the day they live there you live here. Want to take advantage of the supply that you're referring to, open up a location there. (And find out why they don't already have that organization there)

You are omitting the fact that the labor of 20 ofshore devs is being imported to the US through the one on-site leads. The location is already opened up offshore where the cheaper labor exists. Global markets do not exist in isolation, and the issuing of work visas affects the supply of labor in the market.

There is not a line of US citizens with CS backgrounds looking to work 1.5 shifts a day, and learn multiple languages to be able to communicate effectively with the offshore team. There is plenty of supply on the offshore side, hoping for a shot to make it to the US.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it's just one reality of the H1-B system.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#408

Post by svbill »

There is rampant corruption and greed in outsourcing contract firms. Resources are underpaid, often under multiple tiers of contract companies each getting their 30-50% cut. Occasionally the person showing up wasn't the interviewed person. Some contract companies are body shops, farming out H-3 (training VISA) persons who are effectively slaves since it's illegal to work under an H-3. The H-1B managers strategically build teams of H-1B people and exclude others to grow their presence until some companies (VMware, VISA, etc.) have diversely lopsided populations of contractors. Outsourcing needs to be outlawed, because companies looking for project resources simply don't care about external corruption.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#409

Post by svbill »

India has a culture of corruption, corruption is so embedded in the Indian way of life, India has frequent anti-corruption campaigns.

There is rampant corruption and greed in outsourcing contract firms. Resources are underpaid, often under multiple tiers of contract companies each getting their 30-50% cut. Occasionally who shows up wasn't the one interviewed. Some contract companies are body shops, farming out H-3 (training VISA) persons who are effectively slaves since it's illegal to work under an H-3. The H-1B managers strategically build teams of H-1B people and exclude others to grow their presence until some companies (VMware, VISA, etc.) have diversely lopsided populations of contractors.

Outsourcing needs to be outlawed, because it hurts companies, employees (training their replacement) and their families, victimized contract resource. Companies won't stop because they're looking to fill project resource slots, in many cases trivialize the need for quality and experience, and simply don't care about external corruption.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#410

Post by winter_blue »

mavelikara wrote: post #392
winter_blue wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure about your I-140 priority date resetting if you change jobs? I've heard mixed opinions on this. Also, the policies on this might have changed due to the various new immigration regulations that came into effect on January 17, 2017: https://www.uscis.gov/news/news-releases/uscis-publishes-fin...

The place in line stays intact, especially after the new rules came into play. Nevertheless, the process has to restarted - from PERM onwards - at the new job. PERM is a process which carries much uncertainty - your application could get selected for additional scrutiny randomly, in which case it can take more than a year. During this period the priority date can become current and then retrogress again for many year…

> the process has to restarted - from PERM onwards - at the new job

PERM (labor certification) has to be done all over again at the new job? That really sucks. I thought that if the new job was "substantially similar", you wouldn't need to go through PERM all over again at the new position. Are you sure about this?

Also, is there some good reading material, for an H-1B visa holder, to understand how this whole thing works, the process, etc?

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