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H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

economist.com

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Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#361

Post by geebee »

dlp211 wrote: post #356
geebee wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how this works at google, but often, when a company replaces positions with H1B visa workers, they often contract out the work. As a result, the H1B who is doing work for google wouldn't be considered a google employee. It's a fairly common practice, though again, not sure if it happens this way at google.

Correct, this is how H1Bs are abused. But companies like Amafaceooglesoft are hiring H1Bs directly and pay wages, bonuses, and benefits that are equal to their US counterparts, thus, using the system as intended. They are also far more likely to sponsor their H1Bs for Green Card status. I personally work on a team at one of Amafaceooglesoft. On that team are 7 people where 2 are former H1Bs and are now Green Card hol…

I guess the question I'd ask is, do amafaceooglesoft contract out IT work to companies that use the H1B visa, and were any of these roles previously handled in-house.

I'm not sure of the answer, but it could be that these companies make use of both paths. If you're hired directly by these companies, you are paid the same, but a job that is eliminated and replaced through one of the body shops wouldn't be.

For instance, the workers eliminated at Disney aren't technically getting replaced by H1Bs, through a slight of hand. Disney is eliminating the positions, and then hiring a consulting company to provide that work. This way, it can be made to look like the H1Bs hired by Disney are paid the same as their American counterparts- by ensuring that jobs replaced that don't pay the same are no longer considered Disney employees.

Again, not sure if google and other companies do this, but all your data tells me is that developers who are formally hired by google are paid the same. If google eliminates a 150k a year position, and then contracts that job function out to a consulting company paying 75k a year, that wouldn't show up in google's numbers.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#362

Post by ryandrake »

freyr wrote: post #205
loph wrote: post #103

This one sentence says it all: "The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast, America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their workers a median salary of…

You're comparing the average salary of all H-1B jobs (developer, accountant, analyst, etc.) to the salary of a developer. Instead, look at the average salaries for H-1B software engineers in 2016: Facebook @ Menlo Park: $152k Google @ Mountain View: $130k Apple @ Cupertino: $154k Amazon @ Seattle: $124k Microsoft @ Redmond: $120 So comparing base salary alone, these companies are definitely not underpaying their H-1B…

I don't think anyone is complaining about companies like Facebook and Google, who, by many accounts in this thread, are paying market rate for H-1B holders. These guys are not abusing the system. People are complaining about those outsourcing consultant companies who are abusing the system by paying far below market rate to H1B holders.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#363

Post by dlp211 »

ar15saveslives wrote: post #245
mberning wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that a US citizen could rack up tremendous debt on a 4 year STEM degree only to be passed over in favor of a cheaper H1B "indentured servant" that received a degree from a low cost diploma mill is vile indeed.

The (sad?) truth is STEM degree is useless in most IT areas. Even the most complicated development (OS kernels, drivers, a/v processing and encoding, encryption, cv, ml, etc) is all about self-education. It's anecdata, but I personally see zero to no correlation between GPA/how-cool-school-name-sounds and efficiency of a developer. IMO a university is good for building a network, but not for knowledge per se.

For deep knowledge you may be correct, but I learned a ton in College. I went back to school with no programming experience at 28. By the time I graduated I had touched on nearly every one of those topics and I didn't take a CS class until my sophomore year because I originally started as an ECE.

If it wasn't for school, I would never had known where to go after I learned the basics, that is, Data Structures and Algorithms come next, then applied knowledge. Because of the school that I went to, I have a high level knowledge of programming language design and paradigms, OS and systems programming, compilers, encryption, security, and privacy. I also, because I double majored, know more than I want about signals processing and really the only thing in your list that I didn't get to touch on was ML/AI which was unfortunate.

But to your point, College has always been about self-education no matter the subject. The general guidance has always been that for every hour spent in class, you should be spend 2-3 out of class studying.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#364

Post by pedrosorio »

Curious42 wrote: post #275
loph wrote: post #103

This one sentence says it all: "The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast, America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their workers a median salary of…

Why would you compare the salary of top 3 companies in the world to that of 3 consultancy firms? Of course the average salary of the top 3 companies is going to be significantly higher, and of course the hiring is going to be stricter. What were you expecting? Maybe use stats of companies that are about as good as these consultancy firms, and located in similar areas. That will put things into perspective. I'm not sa…

"Of course the average salary of the top 3 companies is going to be significantly higher"

The funny thing is comparing salaries isn't even fair, because total compensation at these top companies is much larger than just salary.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#365

Post by ep103 »

trhway wrote: post #354
ep103 wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accenture literally buses people over national and state borders, so yes, its possible. Somehow I don't think that's much more legal though.

lets say a person sent to work on a 3-4 month project in CA, another such project in WA, and another such in NY while officially living with the other 30 like him in a little house on the prairie. What government can do here? Specifically how it can be clearly identified as illegal? It is like with various other technical loopholes (like say taxes of many rich people, like that one American President who was able to…

I am not a lawyer. But I'd be willing to guess that the difference is that you're a US citizen, attempting to get work wherever you can find it. While you're in that state, you abide by the laws of that state (you pay taxes to that state for income earned there, for example), while also following the laws of your home state (you also file tax there).

And while I imagine accenture's argument will be similar to yours, though much more nuanced, the argument against Accenture will be that those individuals were chosen and use specifically with the intent to bypass local wage laws.

In short, trying to find loopholes in the law, while knowingly violating the purpose of a law, does not result in innocence. Whatever Hollywood says.

I imagine the argument would be along the lines of:

Accenture - Yes, we frequently bus Mexican developers throughout the American southwest. This is because accenture uses many Mexican development shops, and occasionally our clients are interested in having our developers work on site to promote synergy, for small periods of time.

Legal Team - You bussed over a team of 50 devs to Client X, every day, for 2 years. They live in hotels, start on Monday, and end on Friday. This is not a case of the occasional developer meeting with a client as part of a business trip. This is an organized conspiracy to replace the American workforce.

Accenture - While we do run weekly bus services over the border, you will find that in your example, the same individuals do not go every week. Instead, a different 50 were located at Client A on a monthly basis. If there are 200 people working on the project, each 50 will meet for a month. That's four months of busing across the border, while the majority of the time, the team is actually operating from Mexico. We do this to promote synergy across the entire team, not just a select few individuals.

Legal Team - Your honor, we have testimony that when those individuals are in Mexico, their time is split between 20 other projects. When they are in the US, their time is dedicated solely to the client. In short, their claim that they have not somehow intentionally replaced jobs, because they continuously hire and fire different people for the position is patently absurd..

...

But it doesn't matter, because none of those developers are going to bring the suit, at least avanade doesn't hire US developers anymore, and the last few administrations simply haven't been prosecuting US businesses for labor infractions at a historic rate, so I somehow doubt this case would ever occur.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#366

Post by CodeSheikh »

CodeSheikh wrote: post #347
loph wrote: post #103

This one sentence says it all: "The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast, America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their workers a median salary of…

Top visa recipients are these Indian companions. Just start browsing from year 2017 and backwards. This is very interesting. Numbers do not lie. Example: Infosys 25k visas vs Google 4k, Apple 1.6k etc. http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2015-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx

Why is this being marked down? I am not making up numbers. I am quoting a third party website.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#367

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

witty_username wrote: post #268
GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sell my labor in exchange for money, and so it's in my interest for wages to be as high as possible, if not higher.

Sure, it's in your interest for your wages to be as high as possible, but does this maximize overall welfare? By banning competition, the H-1B person's wage and the employer's profits go down and the product price increases. How much depends on the relative elasticities. Isn't this richer people banning much poorer people (immigrants) from competing with them?

> does this maximize overall welfare

I'm not a utilitarian.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#368

Post by CodeSheikh »

usernametbd wrote: post #348
CodeSheikh wrote: post #238

Why don't we just stop accepting visa applications from Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys for one year and see how it unfolds? It will resolve the ongoing debate -- at lease prove it one way or another. From a candidate's point of view, I am all in for finding new opportunities in a foreign prosperous land. But gaming the system is not great for the local US economy. Maybe having a new visa category wit…

> Why don't we just stop accepting visa applications from Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys It's not practical to do that. You can call them "Indian outsourcing firms", but on paper they are American companies too. Compiling such a black list of companies purely based on how many H-1B applications they've filed in the past is not a good idea. Because it'll just give unfair advantage to the other "outsou…

I agree with "an easier way to permanent residency for those who complete Masters or above in US." part. And yes for dependents to pursue jobs as well and get an equal opportunity at a better livelihood. But some sort of major change needs to happen to silence critics on both sides.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#369

Post by whack »

anjc wrote: post #214
whack wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a single major industry where foreign workers wouldn't displace any native workers? If you go back a century or two, I'm sure the Irish/Italian immigrants displaced a whole lot of native workers as well. By your reasoning, the US would completely shut off all avenues for immigration.

Well obviously if there's enough demand for workers, and immigrants are paid at the same rate, then nobody would displace anybody. I'm not saying that the US should shut off avenues for any immigration, but simply that indigenous workers shouldn't have to compete against low wage emerging economies in their own country. If companies want to off-shore, fine.

I can't think of any major industry that has a 0% unemployment rate. Virtually all industries have some level of unemployment, and 2% is on the very low end compared to other industries. Even if all immigrants were paid at the same rate, you would still see a number of American tech workers unemployed.

> "indigenous workers shouldn't have to compete against low wage emerging economies in their own country"

Are you saying that it's ok for foreign workers to displace natives as long as its on the basis of skill, and not costs? I can get behind this proposition, but it sounds very different from what you were saying earlier.

If someone believes that it's never ok for a foreign worker to displace a native worker, even on the basis of skill, the only way I can think of to guarantee this is to shut off immigration completely.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#370

Post by reloop »

0xfeba wrote: post #351
reloop wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike poor working and visa condition as much as, if not more than, anyone else. But other than that I don't really see the problem. You're saying that the people you're hiring aren't particularly talented and get payed less. Not everyone can go to the right school, learn the right languages and get accepted to companies that pay $100k with perks. It sound like, other than fixing some of the things with H-1B, wha…

> You're saying that the people you're hiring aren't particularly talented and get payed less. No I'm saying a citizen fresh grad dev starts at 60-80k at my company, but a H1-B via a contracting company with "5 years experience" (which is a crapshoot but they usually have some experience) gets paid 40-50k. They do the same work.

Considering other factors that is still a fairly small adjustment. I meant what I said that the conditions should be fixed. It should, for instance, be easier for people to change jobs and find jobs on the open market. That would make salaries somewhat more competitive.

But that doesn't mean everyone are going to make the same salaries. Foreigners are always going to be more willing to pay their dues, be less knowledgeable of the local market and have more variable skillets.

People are talking about fixing H-1B by things like salary requirements. That isn't so much fixing it as excluding one set of people and giving preference to another set of people.

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