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How a fake story about Angela Merkel led to a far-right cluster on Reddit

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Re: How a fake story about Angela Merkel led to a far-right cluster on Reddit

#31

Post by ta_donk_gt »

dibujante wrote: post #4
geofft wrote: post #2

This is interesting as a work of network analysis, but I'm not sure how to connect this back to politics. It seems pretty clear to me whenever I browse /r/The_Donald that they're actively uninterested in fact-checking. There are posts hating on the new Netflix TV series "Dear White People" where people ask questions like "Do I even want to know what it's about?". There was a highly-upvoted image about Pizzagate with…

> Are the majority of Trump (and Farage, and Petry, and so forth) voters similarly uninterested in actual facts? Not just uninterested, but actively conspiratorial. It's hard to talk with a Trump voter when it veers into territory like "world leaders are withholding a cure for cancer" and "the Pope has a secret base in Antarctica."

"Violence against Trump supporters is justified because he is literally Hitler",

"Even though everyone knew the rules of the game up front, Trump is not actually the legitimate president because his popular vote tally was lower",

"Trump is not a legitimate president because the Russians may have been involved in releasing some 'routine, not interesting' emails",

"Even though the U.S. has interfered in over 80 elections in the last 20 years (including Russia in 1996), and even though a significant percentage of the mainstream media is foreign owned, and even though there is significant foreign money and foreign influence involved in every election, this election is not legitimate because Russia may have helped release some emails",

"Enforcing existing immigration laws (and shoring up abused immigration laws) to protect American jobs and wages is racist"

----

I could go on for days, but the point is that people in general will say and believe a lot of stupid stuff if it helps their team. Pretending only people on the other team do it is pretty out there.

Re: How a fake story about Angela Merkel led to a far-right cluster on Reddit

#32

Post by knowaveragejoe »

throwaway420 wrote: post #23
rorykoehler wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious about Pizzagate. Some of those emails are clearly trying to hide something. The language in them is obviously "code" for something or other. Has there been any other plausible/implausible theories apart from the Pizzagate one? Edit: Getting downvoted for asking a question. To be clear I have no idea what the emails are about and zero agenda here. The emails came across as very weird to me which is why I a…

We can't know for certain what's going on there, but you will notice that some people are desperate to declare that this has been "debunked" without there being any sort of investigation.

An official investigation, no. But if you simply look at the 'evidence' that's being promoted, it falls apart pretty easily under any real scrutiny. Same goes for most vast conspiracy theories - chains of increasingly unlikely assumptions that must remain unbroken in order for the entire theory to hold any water at all.

Re: How a fake story about Angela Merkel led to a far-right cluster on Reddit

#33

Post by abritinthebay »

rorykoehler wrote: post #7
geofft wrote: post #2

This is interesting as a work of network analysis, but I'm not sure how to connect this back to politics. It seems pretty clear to me whenever I browse /r/The_Donald that they're actively uninterested in fact-checking. There are posts hating on the new Netflix TV series "Dear White People" where people ask questions like "Do I even want to know what it's about?". There was a highly-upvoted image about Pizzagate with…

I'm curious about Pizzagate. Some of those emails are clearly trying to hide something. The language in them is obviously "code" for something or other. Has there been any other plausible/implausible theories apart from the Pizzagate one? Edit: Getting downvoted for asking a question. To be clear I have no idea what the emails are about and zero agenda here. The emails came across as very weird to me which is why I a…

Would you say that you're Just Asking Questions?

Re: How a fake story about Angela Merkel led to a far-right cluster on Reddit

#34

Post by dibujante »

ta_donk_gt wrote: post #31
dibujante wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are the majority of Trump (and Farage, and Petry, and so forth) voters similarly uninterested in actual facts? Not just uninterested, but actively conspiratorial. It's hard to talk with a Trump voter when it veers into territory like "world leaders are withholding a cure for cancer" and "the Pope has a secret base in Antarctica."

"Violence against Trump supporters is justified because he is literally Hitler", "Even though everyone knew the rules of the game up front, Trump is not actually the legitimate president because his popular vote tally was lower", "Trump is not a legitimate president because the Russians may have been involved in releasing some 'routine, not interesting' emails", "Even though the U.S. has interfered in over 80 electio…

These are all shitty arguments, but they're not conspiracies. They're just shitty arguments.

A conspiracy would be more like "Bush did 9/11", which the left was guilty of for a while. Eugh.

Re: How a fake story about Angela Merkel led to a far-right cluster on Reddit

#35

Post by ta_donk_gt »

dibujante wrote: post #34
ta_donk_gt wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Violence against Trump supporters is justified because he is literally Hitler", "Even though everyone knew the rules of the game up front, Trump is not actually the legitimate president because his popular vote tally was lower", "Trump is not a legitimate president because the Russians may have been involved in releasing some 'routine, not interesting' emails", "Even though the U.S. has interfered in over 80 electio…

These are all shitty arguments, but they're not conspiracies. They're just shitty arguments. A conspiracy would be more like "Bush did 9/11", which the left was guilty of for a while. Eugh.

Initially, the point was that it is only Trump supporters that are uninterested in actual facts, but sure, plenty of conspiracy theories on the left as well (was just trying to keep it clean):

"Trump has had or wants to have sex with his daughter..see, here is this picture of her sitting on his lap when she was 12"

"Trump stayed in a Russian hotel room, found out the Obamas had previously stayed in that room so hired prostitutes to urinate on the bed in front of him"

"Russia sold 19% of their state owned oil company to an unknown party and there is a document 'procured' by the Never Trump movement that says something about 19%, so Russia made a deal with Trump to get him elected and give him 19% of their oil if he would lift sanctions"

Re: How a fake story about Angela Merkel led to a far-right cluster on Reddit

#36

Post by jessaustin »

ticviking wrote: post #17
jessaustin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The Russians phished some Hillary staffers, and that's why she was so unpopular with voters!"

Yes both sides have their conspiracy theories. The issue is is that the scale of conspiracies imagined by the left just doesn't compare to what is imagined on the right. Imagining that "a group largely ruled by the same people we have been playing spy-games with for a century might be playing spy-games with us" is distinctly different from, "A large part of the US ruling class is part of a satanic cult with food base…

That certainly could be an issue, if that's what seems important to somebody. The main issue to me is that the one group of conspiratorial goofballs is invisible to me (silly Pizzagate dude was arrested before I even heard of "Pizzagate"), while the other group of conspiratorial goofballs is everywhere: on the TV, on NPR, in Congress, on social media. I can't escape them.

I voted for neither of the Status Quo Party candidates, because they both make me sick. Yet even as I wiped the vomit from my chin, I couldn't help but notice that the primary complaint about the election results was that the voters knew more about one of the candidates and her organization than she wanted them to know. Did we ever care about objectivity? If a losing R candidate made the same complaint, all of these pundits would laugh at that candidate: "Oh, someone leaked your email? In which you discussed the dirty deeds you did your poor little primary opponent? And the way they got that email was by phishing you? Well, boooo-hooooo! Next time use two-factor, sweetheart."

Re: How a fake story about Angela Merkel led to a far-right cluster on Reddit

#37

Post by tmuir »

rorykoehler wrote: post #7
geofft wrote: post #2

This is interesting as a work of network analysis, but I'm not sure how to connect this back to politics. It seems pretty clear to me whenever I browse /r/The_Donald that they're actively uninterested in fact-checking. There are posts hating on the new Netflix TV series "Dear White People" where people ask questions like "Do I even want to know what it's about?". There was a highly-upvoted image about Pizzagate with…

I'm curious about Pizzagate. Some of those emails are clearly trying to hide something. The language in them is obviously "code" for something or other. Has there been any other plausible/implausible theories apart from the Pizzagate one? Edit: Getting downvoted for asking a question. To be clear I have no idea what the emails are about and zero agenda here. The emails came across as very weird to me which is why I a…

This really gets at the heart of the allure of conspiracy theories. If you are already predisposed to believe that something nefarious must be being discussed, the simple presence of ambiguity in the discussion becomes "evidence" of conspiracy. But that ambiguity is likely the result of the readers of the email not having very much context into the conversation. Email is not the only form of communication these people use to communicate. They also speak on the phone, as well as face to face. They likely use instant messaging and SMS. They also likely pass messages through intermediaries. They likely share memos. This is rational human behavior common to nearly every person in the world with access to the relevant technologies.

What is truly maddening about conspiracy theorists, especially those who have gained a following, is that even the simplest, most rational explanation can easily be cast as a coverup of the conspiracy. If you have already inspired fear in someone, and gained their general trust, you can perpetuate that fear indefinitely, so long as undeniable evidence to the contrary is not presented.

Re: How a fake story about Angela Merkel led to a far-right cluster on Reddit

#38

Post by iak8god »

thraway2016 wrote: post #26
dibujante wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are the majority of Trump (and Farage, and Petry, and so forth) voters similarly uninterested in actual facts? Not just uninterested, but actively conspiratorial. It's hard to talk with a Trump voter when it veers into territory like "world leaders are withholding a cure for cancer" and "the Pope has a secret base in Antarctica."

Interesting. On the Right, we see the same thing with your side. Total blind faith in blank slate theories of human equality, and uninterested in the piles of twin studies and metastudies that clearly demonstrate innate differences between demographic groups, even actively conspiratorial. It's hard to talk to a Hillary voter when it veers into "Conservatives are all anti-science but the Minnesota Transracial Adoption…

Why is it so important to you people to believe you were born better than someone else? This is a serious question, not just snark.

Re: How a fake story about Angela Merkel led to a far-right cluster on Reddit

#39

Post by tmuir »

throwaway420 wrote: post #23
rorykoehler wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious about Pizzagate. Some of those emails are clearly trying to hide something. The language in them is obviously "code" for something or other. Has there been any other plausible/implausible theories apart from the Pizzagate one? Edit: Getting downvoted for asking a question. To be clear I have no idea what the emails are about and zero agenda here. The emails came across as very weird to me which is why I a…

We can't know for certain what's going on there, but you will notice that some people are desperate to declare that this has been "debunked" without there being any sort of investigation.

We can't know for certain if there has been an investigation, but you will notice that some people are desperate to declare that this has not been investigated by the relevant authorities.

Re: How a fake story about Angela Merkel led to a far-right cluster on Reddit

#40

Post by joshbert »

rorykoehler wrote: post #7
geofft wrote: post #2

This is interesting as a work of network analysis, but I'm not sure how to connect this back to politics. It seems pretty clear to me whenever I browse /r/The_Donald that they're actively uninterested in fact-checking. There are posts hating on the new Netflix TV series "Dear White People" where people ask questions like "Do I even want to know what it's about?". There was a highly-upvoted image about Pizzagate with…

I'm curious about Pizzagate. Some of those emails are clearly trying to hide something. The language in them is obviously "code" for something or other. Has there been any other plausible/implausible theories apart from the Pizzagate one? Edit: Getting downvoted for asking a question. To be clear I have no idea what the emails are about and zero agenda here. The emails came across as very weird to me which is why I a…

This is my exact experience when asking questions about a broad subject that has to do with politics. You get downvoted, therefore information doesn't flow properly your way, which leaves people just as ignorant as they come in and resentful that they get punished for asking serious questions in a respectful tone.
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