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2017 State of Global Tech Salaries

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Re: 2017 State of Global Tech Salaries

#261

Post by dukeluke »

_m8fo wrote: post #211
dukeluke wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no merit in forced diversity. If they have the opportunity and incentive to choose this field, yet go elsewhere, that's fine by me.

You've yet to prove that they've had "the opportunity and incentive to choose this field, yet go elsewhere."

Affirmative action means women and minorities get preferential treatment during hiring. Given the fact that women and minorities are underrepresented in tech, it should be obvious that they would have an incentive to join the industry because they would have very little trouble getting hired wherever they want. And given the fact that over 60 percent of graduates are women, it's clear that lack of opportunity isn't a factor for women at least.

Re: 2017 State of Global Tech Salaries

#262

Post by the_gastropod »

Amezarak wrote: post #181
the_gastropod wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many things necessary (or common) for living in suburban and rural places is subsidized through taxes, flat-rate costs of goods/services, and several other means. I'll give a few examples: * Internet, electricity, or cable costs significantly more to provide to people living in single family homes with distant neighbors than it does to provide to residents of a highrise apartment building. The consumers, however, pay…

> * Gas. The Federal government subsidizes gasoline. Suburban/Rural residents drive more and consume more gas than urban residents who are more likely to use public transit. There is in fact a federal fuel tax , in addition to state fuel taxes. There is no direct gasoline subsidy. Some people argue that the tax deductions and structures used by drilling companies are a kind of subsidy, but that's debatable and most o…

> The idea that rural living is unsustainable is just silly - we got along quite well before massive megacities ever existed

Yes. When we were living agrarian lifestyles. That way of life is as sustainable as it is rare.

Re: 2017 State of Global Tech Salaries

#263

Post by _m8fo »

dukeluke wrote: post #261
_m8fo wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've yet to prove that they've had "the opportunity and incentive to choose this field, yet go elsewhere."

Affirmative action means women and minorities get preferential treatment during hiring. Given the fact that women and minorities are underrepresented in tech, it should be obvious that they would have an incentive to join the industry because they would have very little trouble getting hired wherever they want. And given the fact that over 60 percent of graduates are women, it's clear that lack of opportunity isn't a…

So you basically have no evidence to back up meaningless, unsubstantiated claims. You don't even support your statement: "affirmative action means women and minorities get preferential treatment during hiring." Guess the discussion is over since you refuse to provide any evidence to back up your ridiculous claims.

Re: 2017 State of Global Tech Salaries

#264

Post by dukeluke »

_m8fo wrote: post #263
dukeluke wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affirmative action means women and minorities get preferential treatment during hiring. Given the fact that women and minorities are underrepresented in tech, it should be obvious that they would have an incentive to join the industry because they would have very little trouble getting hired wherever they want. And given the fact that over 60 percent of graduates are women, it's clear that lack of opportunity isn't a…

So you basically have no evidence to back up meaningless, unsubstantiated claims. You don't even support your statement: "affirmative action means women and minorities get preferential treatment during hiring." Guess the discussion is over since you refuse to provide any evidence to back up your ridiculous claims.

> You don't even support your statement: "affirmative action means women and minorities get preferential treatment during hiring."

Are you saying this is untrue? If I am wrong, then what is affirmative action?

Re: 2017 State of Global Tech Salaries

#265

Post by logfromblammo »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #244
logfromblammo wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here I am, like a schmuck, paying almost 11.5% of my gross income in rent, on a 3 bedr/2.5 bath freestanding house. I think I'd have to earn more than $360k to get even close to that in SF/SV. About the only places a median-priced house is more affordable than where I am now, relative to median income, are Illinois, Ohio, Iowa, Indiana, and selected places in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and upstate New Yor…

A nice big detached house just isn't my priority, it's not something I want. In fact, they personally sicken me, is much rather have a more cozy apartment with one or two bedrooms. Oh, and nice weather and a thriving culture scene would be nice (yes, I live in California). If companies followed your advice, they would lose way too many employees, it turns out many tech people at the high end value different things an…

I presume from your tone that you are childless. "Cozy" gets really old, really quick when you have kids. And when they get larger, you really don't want them living right on top of you.

As someone living outside of California, I value 40 hour work weeks and my kids sleeping in a different room. Thriving culture is nice, but a decent public school district is better.

SV companies may not be losing employees now (other than to rampant poaching and job-hopping), but they certainly aren't attracting certain classes of employees for their on-site work. They can bring in the young singles who may be willing to work 80 hours a week and sleep in a broom closet for $1000/month. They can get the geniuses that can command the high salary that it takes to secure the sort of housing situation that the entire remainder of the continent takes for granted. They can't get the parents from middle America that think many SV tech employers are literally insane.

Everyone in the US, aside from those specific places I already mentioned, can currently afford to buy a 2 bedr/1 bath house or condo on an income that is considered just mediocre in their area. Those are not "big houses". Our version of living in a broom closet under the stairs is a 1 bedr/1 bath apartment or manufactured home at $500/month or less. (Our version of living in a van down by the river is still living in a van down by the river.) Even a five-bedroom house is not "big" if you have four kids in it, or plan to put that many in it.

If companies followed my advice, they would reduce their recruitment, labor, and facilities costs during their expansions. They wouldn't lose anyone unless they also decided to shut down offices in California.

Re: 2017 State of Global Tech Salaries

#266

Post by afpx »

sokoloff wrote: post #89
_m8fo wrote: post #60

I'm legitimately interested to see how much software engineers make if they're not White or Asian. Given the lack of women and minorities I'd say minorities are better off being an MD than a SE. In addition, I'm skeptical that an average SE can get offers at places that give them this kind of compensation. --- Take Google for an example. [1] The earning "likelihood" (whether this is cultural, sociopolitical, socioeco…

I think you're skipping an important step in your model. The probability of being black given that you work at Google is low. That doesn't imply that the probability of being hired at Google given that you're a black software engineer is low. (There may be a relatively low number of black software engineers in the industry. In fact, I believe that there are.) (In the short term,) Google can't conjure up black softwar…

Interestingly enough, 12% of Computer and Information Science degrees in the US are awarded to Blacks [1][2]. That is in contrast to 9% that are awarded to Asians. But also, 13% of the population is Black, and 5% of the population is Asian [3]. So, it would be expected that more Asians than Blacks are employed at Tech companies. However, the high ratio of Asians (vs. Whites, Blacks, and Latinos) employed at Bay Area tech companies shows some discrepancies. But, it may only be that Asians are more willing to relocate.

[1]: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d11/tables/dt11_301.asp

[2]: I could only find 2010 data, but I expect it's generally consistent.

[3]: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045216/00

Re: 2017 State of Global Tech Salaries

#267

Post by elastic_church »

acchow wrote: post #256
elastic_church wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually like private company RSUs and the lack of data around them. I can get super amazing offers from Microsoft of Google who will throw RSUs at me based on the assumption I actually had such great offers from the last company, even if it is private. The secret is to tell them that there's a huge secondary market and lots of liquidity. There, the secret's out, they have no way of verifying, and the secondary mar…

You really think Google is this naive? They are fully aware there's a stupid dance around negotiations and they don't really care which routine you choose to take.

Naive? This is exactly what they do. If you come over from Facebook and Google offers you the standard RSU package, but you let them know what kind of vesting RSU packing you already have, they'll up the ante.

Sounds like you are more uncomfortable with the idea that some people don't have to work for the same outcome.

Re: 2017 State of Global Tech Salaries

#268

Post by budman1 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #252
icpmacdo wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean saying "This is why people in nice but cheap places are so afraid of Californians."?

In much of the west coast, and near western state, local housing prices are often driven up by Californians leaving the state with either lots of savings and/or equity cashed out from the house they just sold. So there has historically been a lot of anti-Californian backlash in places like Seattle and Portland, whose house markets haven't always been hot in their own right. Imagine you live in a place where the avera…

Grand Jct Colorado. Full of California retirees.

Re: 2017 State of Global Tech Salaries

#269

Post by bluGill »

acchow wrote: post #257
bluGill wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is invalid to consider stocks, bonus, and other incentives in your calculations. Companies take them away all the time. You have salary, and that is it. Fringe benefits (insurance, 401k match...) is a useful thing to get and part of the picture, but the company can change them to your negative when they feel like it. stocks and bonus are nice, but you dare not count on them until after you get them. People who do…

Actually, a company can't take away granted RSU's that are still vesting. That's a signed agreement. They can, however, reduce your salary at will.

True, but there is no reason to believe that those stocks will be worth anything when they vest.

Re: 2017 State of Global Tech Salaries

#270

Post by seanmcdirmid »

logfromblammo wrote: post #265
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A nice big detached house just isn't my priority, it's not something I want. In fact, they personally sicken me, is much rather have a more cozy apartment with one or two bedrooms. Oh, and nice weather and a thriving culture scene would be nice (yes, I live in California). If companies followed your advice, they would lose way too many employees, it turns out many tech people at the high end value different things an…

I presume from your tone that you are childless. "Cozy" gets really old, really quick when you have kids. And when they get larger, you really don't want them living right on top of you. As someone living outside of California, I value 40 hour work weeks and my kids sleeping in a different room. Thriving culture is nice, but a decent public school district is better. SV companies may not be losing employees now (othe…

> I presume from your tone that you are childless. "Cozy" gets really old, really quick when you have kids. And when they get larger, you really don't want them living right on top of you.

I have a child and big houses still disgust me. They really aren't necessary, and, at least for me, is not where I want to allocate more of my money to. Instead, I value living two blocks from where I work. To each their own.

> SV companies may not be losing employees now (other than to rampant poaching and job-hopping), but they certainly aren't attracting certain classes of employees for their on-site work.

We heard this 10 years ago and 20 years ago. Yes, and it is all intentional.

> They can't get the parents from middle America that think many SV tech employers are literally insane.

I have a nice 40 hour work week, it isn't anywhere near as you described. Also, I'm in LA, not SV.

> Even a five-bedroom house is not "big" if you have four kids in it, or plan to put that many in it.

If I ever plan to have four kids, then maybe a big house is reasonable. I have one kid, and anyways, we just moved from China, where the thought of a 5 bedroom house is considered very...American. In much of the world, people have much less than that, and everything goes along quite well.

> If companies followed my advice, they would reduce their recruitment, labor, and facilities costs during their expansions.

The employees they want aren't going to move to nowhere middle america. The problem is that, if their job falls through, they will have to move again to find another. Being in an area of critical mass, even if the cost of living is higher, has a big advantage that the next job will be in the same place also. You could argue that the critical mass could exist elsewhere, but the negative externalities would follow.

I've lived in many places in the USA: Tri-cities (middle of nowhere Washington State), Toledo, Vicksburg (nowhere Mississippi), Seattle, Salt Lake City, Austin, Boca Raton, Bay Area, now LA (not to mention Lausanne and Beijing outside of the USA). I prefer the urban to the the suburban, I understand why others might prefer suburban, but I don't think they are an overwhelming majority, especially in our industry.

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