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H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

economist.com

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Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#211

Post by pm90 »

anarcticpuffin wrote: post #183
Panini_Jones wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> None of those salaries listed are competitive with what a non-H1B (read citizen or permanent resident) would earn. As a new grad interviewing for software engineering positions at FB, Google, Etc., I make exactly the same amount as my U.S. peers who have also received offers. Moreover, how do you know that the SE level of the H1B hires is exactly that of the pool from which Indeed.com calculates their averages? Wha…

One of the arguments I see repeated here against hiring H1-B junior developers is that they: a) Aren't qualified as the best and brightest since they're still inexperienced b) Took a university seat from an American citizen [1] Firstly, my response to these is going to treat the $65k/year as a soon-to-be-solved problem. It's making the whole program look bad at the expense of talented people and the American economy,…

There is most certainly a huge brain drain from China and India to the west. And it isn't limited to Technology: some of the best doctors and healthcare professionals, Biotech researchers etc. are all attracted to the well paying jobs and well-funded research opportunities offered by the US. It has always been a sticking point in India.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#212

Post by bjornsing »

adekok wrote: post #55
bjornsing wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the labor market I'd say we gave in to "more power to people who pay more" [1] quite some time ago, and rightly so. 1. Like e.g. employees, all other things equal, tend to work for the employer that pays better. That gives more power to employers that can pay more.

In a free labor market. The labor market inside the country is mostly free. People can move to where the jobs are. The labor market for foreigners isn't free. There are restrictions in place to prevent foreign immigration. If it's cheaper to import someone from India rather than Montana, is that OK? If so, why? If not, why not?

> If it's cheaper to import someone from India rather than Montana, is that OK? If so, why? If not, why not?

As I understand the reasoning behind the H1B visa program:

If it's just cheaper, then it's not ok, essentially because workers in Montana should be protected from wage competition. But if it's unlikely that someone in Montana could / wants to do the job, then it's ok, because then there is no competitive situation and the interest of the business / economy to fill a position takes precedence.

Isn't a good way to ensure that to just raise the bar in terms of wage? If a business has to pay $150k/y for a H1B worker (because otherwise they won't get the visa) then they'd probably prefer a comparable candidate from Montana for $140k/y. If they still hire the H1B it's because nobody in Montana wants to / can do the job for $140k/y, so no wage competition (except of course if someone in Montana does want to do the job for $160k/y - but in that case they're perhaps not in desperate need of "protectionistic intervention" from their government).

So to me it seems an "auction" allocation strategy for H1B visas would strike a pretty good balance, raising the wage bar when demand for visas go up (and lowering it if/when demand goes down).

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#213

Post by throwawaytw5454 »

throwaway251 wrote: post #132

Looking at the discussion so far - probably going to get trolled/downvoted but here goes: From all of the above comments - people are trying to undo only the parts of globalization that they don't like (wage arbitrage is one of them - stop crying!). I truly wonder what would happen if the Indians (and the rest of the world) started treating Americans the same way the America treats them and starts to roll back the im…

If a trade war happened, it would wound the developing world a great deal more than it would impact the United States.

The US could be self-sufficient in terms of resources and manufacturing with relatively minor policy shifts and subsidization of domestic industries.

China's export-driven, currency-manipulating economic engine pretty much needs the US as a market so it doesn't collapse under its own weight. China already isn't playing ball by allowing American companies to compete within its domestic market, so it's not like that would be any great loss on that front.

Personally, I'd love to stop subsidizing the third world at the expense of American citizens. Developing countries need the US a lot more than the US needs them.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#214

Post by anjc »

whack wrote: post #190
anjc wrote: post #97

>Although it is true that foreign workers at the Indian consultancies receive more visas than higher-skilled workers at better-known firms, a simple solution exists. Congress could raise the number of visas issued. Given that the unemployment rate for college graduates sits at 2.5%, it is fair to say that most native workers displaced by H-1Bs land on their feet. Absolute scum. Native workers displaced by H1Bs is ok…

Is there a single major industry where foreign workers wouldn't displace any native workers? If you go back a century or two, I'm sure the Irish/Italian immigrants displaced a whole lot of native workers as well. By your reasoning, the US would completely shut off all avenues for immigration.

Well obviously if there's enough demand for workers, and immigrants are paid at the same rate, then nobody would displace anybody.

I'm not saying that the US should shut off avenues for any immigration, but simply that indigenous workers shouldn't have to compete against low wage emerging economies in their own country. If companies want to off-shore, fine.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#215

Post by harichinnan »

lostboys67 wrote: post #199
harichinnan wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would essentially mean only silicon valley and NYC employers would get H1B employees. The entire South would face a skills shortage. The economist article actually provides a better solution. Visas shouldn't be tied to a particular employer. The employee should be able to transition to a new employer without a new visa application. There could be minimal paperwork to determine when a foreign worker is and whethe…

So that is how the free market works your not one of those gosh darned socialists are you :-) And I suspect that for a "brown" skinned persons the south is not exactly a welcoming environment.

Big cities in the South are liberal oases. Houston, TX had a lesbian mayor till last year, who got married legally while in office.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#216

Post by throwaway251 »

throwawaytw5454 wrote: post #213
throwaway251 wrote: post #132

Looking at the discussion so far - probably going to get trolled/downvoted but here goes: From all of the above comments - people are trying to undo only the parts of globalization that they don't like (wage arbitrage is one of them - stop crying!). I truly wonder what would happen if the Indians (and the rest of the world) started treating Americans the same way the America treats them and starts to roll back the im…

If a trade war happened, it would wound the developing world a great deal more than it would impact the United States. The US could be self-sufficient in terms of resources and manufacturing with relatively minor policy shifts and subsidization of domestic industries. China's export-driven, currency-manipulating economic engine pretty much needs the US as a market so it doesn't collapse under its own weight. China al…

"Personally, I'd love to stop subsidizing the third world at the expense of American citizens. Developing countries need the US a lot more than the US needs them."

That's the exact illusion most Americans live on.

"On November 7, 2016, debt held by the public was $14.3 trillion or about 76% of the previous 12 months of GDP.[5][6][7][8] Intragovernmental holdings stood at $5.4 trillion, giving a combined total gross national debt of $19.8 trillion or about 106% of the previous 12 months of GDP.[7] $6.2 trillion or approximately 45% of the debt held by the public was owned by foreign investors, the largest of which were China and Japan at about $1.25 trillion for China and $1.15 trillion for Japan as of May 2016.[9]"

Go figure..

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_of_the_United_St...

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#217

Post by calvinbhai »

anjc wrote: post #214
whack wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a single major industry where foreign workers wouldn't displace any native workers? If you go back a century or two, I'm sure the Irish/Italian immigrants displaced a whole lot of native workers as well. By your reasoning, the US would completely shut off all avenues for immigration.

Well obviously if there's enough demand for workers, and immigrants are paid at the same rate, then nobody would displace anybody. I'm not saying that the US should shut off avenues for any immigration, but simply that indigenous workers shouldn't have to compete against low wage emerging economies in their own country. If companies want to off-shore, fine.

Let me offer a deal:

If i get a green card today (no strings attached) I'll quit my H1b job right now I'll bootstrap my own startup that'll create 10 jobs in 1 year

Does that sound like a good deal? You are happy, I'm happy, and all the jobs i create, those employees are happy. its a win-win-win deal.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#218

Post by paulus_magnus2 »

(EU citizen point of view) I'd never consider a role in US that pays less than 150k (outside SV) $200k (SV/NY).

H-1B is really bad because the holder has limited bargaining power vs US citizens hence he's forced to accept a lower salary when competing for jobs.

There's also no clean way to allow talent to move around the world.

A fair solution would be to agree on visa free movement of specialists earning above certain threshold ($100, $150k etc), even if it starts with a group of "most favourite nations".

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#219

Post by freyr »

6stringmerc wrote: post #210
loph wrote: post #103

This one sentence says it all: "The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast, America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their workers a median salary of…

I was poking around in an H1-B lookup system that was posted here last year (2015 maybe?) that enabled me to check into another realm where I had a suspicion the H1-B program is also depressing wages: Bench Science at Universities. Mostly PhDs. Post-Doctoral Fellows. The numbers - state by state, institution by institution - are staggering in my opinion. It's a snake eating itself in how these Universities prepare US…

> That's why PhDs aren't lining up to spend $250,000, then take several years (if lucky) to get a $52,000 a year job with limited security.

In many fields, often fields that don't pay well, the PhD students are mostly American. In my engineering program, the vast majority were Indian and East Asian. They have all gone on to get very good paying jobs.

And it makes a lot of sense for them. Most probably wouldn't be getting a high paying tech job back home, so the opportunity cost of spending 5 years in a PhD program is low, and it opens up a lot of doors. By comparison, a U.S. citizen with an engineering B.S. might get paid $65k-$115k year out of college. A 5-year PhD will then cost them $250k-$500k in lost earnings.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#220

Post by Retric »

throwaway251 wrote: post #216
throwawaytw5454 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a trade war happened, it would wound the developing world a great deal more than it would impact the United States. The US could be self-sufficient in terms of resources and manufacturing with relatively minor policy shifts and subsidization of domestic industries. China's export-driven, currency-manipulating economic engine pretty much needs the US as a market so it doesn't collapse under its own weight. China al…

"Personally, I'd love to stop subsidizing the third world at the expense of American citizens. Developing countries need the US a lot more than the US needs them." That's the exact illusion most Americans live on. "On November 7, 2016, debt held by the public was $14.3 trillion or about 76% of the previous 12 months of GDP.[5][6][7][8] Intragovernmental holdings stood at $5.4 trillion, giving a combined total gross n…

Debt and GDP is only loosely related. Nations only need to service their debt not pay it down in some short time period. Thus, 14.3 trillion in (debt) * (current interest rate - inflation) or around 14.3 trillion * (2.423% - 2.20%) = 28.6 billion per year or ~1/500 GDP aka peanuts.
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