H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms • Hacker News Board

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#201

Post by nicholas73 » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 3:39 PM UTC

I would go further and say that underpaid H1-B's are a straw man to the real mechanism that depresses American wages. Even if imported workers are paid exactly market, that still means market prices do not go up as there is no one to bid up salaries. That means people are not being compensated for delivery high value, or for developing skill in a difficult or rare area.

There is a lot of hot air between the salary a person would accept versus the value they generate for a company. Having some unemployed people makes it so that the balance always tips towards the low end.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#202

Post by ardy123 » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #15

ardy123 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were to replace the higher paid positions with lower paid outsourced positions the allure of Silicon Valley would be lost entirely to me. The talent would simply move elsewhere. I don't understand why you're favouring a race to the bottom in terms of salary in terms of benefits to a business. It makes our talent go elsewhere.

I'm not favoring a race to the bottom but I understand the allure of getting better talent for cheaper. And the allure of getting pay more than you currently are getting. Sure cost of living in SV is higher, but saving 5% of 100k is a lot more $$$ than 15% of 24k. And you're exposes to better opportunities.

That's the thing though, the h1b aren't getting 5% of 100k, they're getting 5% of 60k and bringing down the demand for locals. Unless these people are worth the money, then businesses should be expected to pay the money. So in short if they plan to raise number of h1b visas, the salary minimum should be significantly and from my understanding it already has.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#203

Post by beachstartup » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 3:41 PM UTC

dukeluke wrote: post #200

krinchan wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> am mostly through college Lack of a degree and a code camp certificate only works in tech cities where it's hard to find coders who are gullible enough to work for free...I mean get paid in equity in a startup that's really only there to suck at the tit of an angel investor for a few funding rounds.

Right. That was exactly my point with my first post. The only way you can get a job in this industry without being in a tech city is to have a degree. I don't understand why I'm being downvoted for pointing that out.

because it's untrue. you just aren't skilled or experienced enough to get a good job.

"the only way..." usually is a made-up fact designed to fit a circumstance.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#204

Post by anjc » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 3:42 PM UTC

Kurtz79 wrote: post #170

anjc wrote: post #97

>Although it is true that foreign workers at the Indian consultancies receive more visas than higher-skilled workers at better-known firms, a simple solution exists. Congress could raise the number of visas issued. Given that the unemployment rate for college graduates sits at 2.5%, it is fair to say that most native workers displaced by H-1Bs land on their feet. Absolute scum. Native workers displaced by H1Bs is ok…

"A significant proportion of IT and STEM graduate are unable to get work in their chosen industry, and proceed to waste years of education by going into other areas out of necessity." Not contesting this statement, but is there some research or data supporting it ? My very anecdotal experience is that the number of people that I know with a CS or STEM degree that have been unable to find work for more than a few week…

There is. Not to be a dick but I'm rushing out...if you search for "STEM IT underemployment OR stagnation" and so on you'll find actual studies. Personally I know several people who had major trouble finding employment, from the most reputable college in my country. Some remained unemployed, some went into teaching, some moved into academia, some changed industries, most emigrated. Maybe things are getting better now. Anyway..

This article links to census data as I recall: http://archives.cjr.org/essay/it_doesnt_add_up.php

This one's a little older but gives a good jumping off point for academic keywords for further searches: http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i...

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#205

Post by freyr » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 3:43 PM UTC

loph wrote: post #103

This one sentence says it all: "The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast, America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their workers a median salary of…

You're comparing the average salary of all H-1B jobs (developer, accountant, analyst, etc.) to the salary of a developer. Instead, look at the average salaries for H-1B software engineers in 2016:

Facebook @ Menlo Park: $152k

Google @ Mountain View: $130k

Apple @ Cupertino: $154k

Amazon @ Seattle: $124k

Microsoft @ Redmond: $120

So comparing base salary alone, these companies are definitely not underpaying their H-1B hires.

To see salaries for yourself, you can go here and filter by year to see the latest data:

http://h1bpay.com/companies/Facebook/cities/Menlo%20Park-CA/...

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#206

Post by bonzini » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 3:43 PM UTC

dvndvn wrote: post #175

loph wrote: post #103

This one sentence says it all: "The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast, America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their workers a median salary of…

Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft are hugely profitable corporations they pay top dollar to any talent, whether its domestic or international. So the argument Indian outsourcing firms should pay similar salaries to every employee is like, asking every US company to pay on par with Google/Microsoft employees, I guess. There is something to be done to the US working class for sure. But when US wants to be t…

The question is why do the outsourcing companies need to hire so many foreigners---other than to pay them nothing and screw up the H1B lottery for everyone else, of course.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#207

Post by caseysoftware » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 3:43 PM UTC

> That is not a good argument against them

It's odd that the Economist has this sub-head but then goes on to make the case that Indian outsourcing companies are the biggest consumers and paying a fraction of what the others are paying.. so they are abusing the system.

The rumor (proposal?) is that Trump is going to shift the minimum salary from $60k to $130k which makes it closer to software dev salaries in Seattle, SF, NYC which I think would address this.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#208

Post by throwaway251 » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 3:44 PM UTC

Helmet wrote: post #192

throwaway251 wrote: post #132

Looking at the discussion so far - probably going to get trolled/downvoted but here goes: From all of the above comments - people are trying to undo only the parts of globalization that they don't like (wage arbitrage is one of them - stop crying!). I truly wonder what would happen if the Indians (and the rest of the world) started treating Americans the same way the America treats them and starts to roll back the im…

You're severely underestimating the impact U.S. business has on other countries. A trade war with any of the countries you have listed would harm them much more than it would harm the US. China holds about 8-9% US debt. Their entire economic model is based on the devaluation of their currency so that the US and other countries purchase their products. If China dumps US debt, there is plenty of demand elsewhere. Look,…

You are right - no other country in the world can compete with the US on economic grounds. And the reason for this has been decades of international trade that the USA has benefited from. The aim should not be competition but dis-engagement.

It would cause a LOT of short term pain - but 15-20 years later it would show benefits. China and India need to evolve with reduced dependence on exports (and the developed world). In any case they will have the largest markets based on current population projections.

Just look at the kind of income inequality that exists in these countries - I would actually argue that this was a by-product of trying to copy/serve the US model at some level.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#209

Post by bonzini » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 3:44 PM UTC

tootie wrote: post #134

loph wrote: post #103

This one sentence says it all: "The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast, America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their workers a median salary of…

Probably true, but there's plenty of firms that are not hiring top talent and/or not in major metro areas where salaries are lower. Places that need 50 warm bodies to code back-office systems in a Pennsylvania suburb are not going to be paying $150K to anyone.

And why do they need an H1B visa for the employee then?

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#210

Post by 6stringmerc » Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 3:44 PM UTC

loph wrote: post #103

This one sentence says it all: "The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast, America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their workers a median salary of…

I was poking around in an H1-B lookup system that was posted here last year (2015 maybe?) that enabled me to check into another realm where I had a suspicion the H1-B program is also depressing wages:

Bench Science at Universities.

Mostly PhDs. Post-Doctoral Fellows. The numbers - state by state, institution by institution - are staggering in my opinion. It's a snake eating itself in how these Universities prepare US students (ahem, expensive via loans more often than not) then when it's time to get a job, funding is so competitive (different problem) that labor prices are forced into the gutter. Enter the H1-B labor force.

The idea that the US isn't capable of meeting real STEM demand is utter bullshit. The demand would be met if there was a living wage. A quality of life. People in the US still have faint memories of pride and not being over-worked and over-debt riddled, and still cling to just the last threads. That's why PhDs aren't lining up to spend $250,000, then take several years (if lucky) to get a $52,000 a year job with limited security.