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H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

economist.com

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Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#181
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only Indians and Chinese have to rely on h1b. Really?! You're excluding all of Europe, Russia, Australia/NZ, Latin America, Africa Yes, those people have developers, yes some of them are talented enough to want to apply for an H1B. But they have to stand in line because Tata needs another 1000 people to be exploited for cheap

Exactly! I'm french and it will be the second time this year that I apply for an H1B. Without Tata and Infosys I'd have it for a while now.

Good luck! Try to sign up for the diversity greencard also, it's 2% chance but it's free so nothing to lose :)

I myself failed the H1-B twice :( had to leave the US earlier this year.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#182
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! I'm french and it will be the second time this year that I apply for an H1B. Without Tata and Infosys I'd have it for a while now.

Not sure if this is well known, but here's what you can do if you are not Indian or Chinese. Yes Mr. or Ms. French, you too. -Do a MS in CS or some STEM field from an accredited school. -Get a job with an employer willing to start green card process immediately (many will be willing since it means no uncertainity of H1b lottery) -Before your 3 yr OPT expires, you'll get your EAD (after doing PERM and I-140 on premium…

> Get a job with an employer willing to start green card process immediately (many will be willing since it means no uncertainity of H1b lottery)

Good luck finding such an employer when you're fresh out of school.

Also, a greencard takes ages to process.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#183
post #103

This one sentence says it all: "The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast, America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their workers a median salary of…

> None of those salaries listed are competitive with what a non-H1B (read citizen or permanent resident) would earn. As a new grad interviewing for software engineering positions at FB, Google, Etc., I make exactly the same amount as my U.S. peers who have also received offers. Moreover, how do you know that the SE level of the H1B hires is exactly that of the pool from which Indeed.com calculates their averages? Wha…

One of the arguments I see repeated here against hiring H1-B junior developers is that they:

  a) Aren't qualified as the best and brightest since they're still inexperienced

  b) Took a university seat from an American citizen
[1] Firstly, my response to these is going to treat the $65k/year as a soon-to-be-solved problem. It's making the whole program look bad at the expense of talented people and the American economy, and luckily has bi-partisan support for reform.

I want to offer a thought. As a country, we want the world's greatest minds to reside here. Those minds generate ideas, make local companies stronger and, at the most basic level, generate tax revenue greater than the average citizen. Creating a pipeline to bring in the best minds in the world is a net benefit for US citizens. Giving up /some/ university seats to attract the brightest from other countries makes sense. Giving up /some/ entry level roles to retaining those minds in the country, to which we've already lent our world-leading educational institutions to, also makes sense.

I've been in a hiring position with a Global 500 company that considers H1-B applicants. At no point during any of my conversations with other hiring managers did we ever consider "Oh, let's take that applicant, they'll cost less because of their Visa." If anything, some folks might hold off because they don't want to deal with the uncertainty of losing a key employee because of a lottery. If companies wanted cheap labor, they'd just use outsourcing. So it's possible H1-B applicants (excepting cheap consultants, see [1]) have a higher bar to clear than citizen/resident candidates.

The interesting point here, is that there's 3 types of nationalism in this discussion and I find it funny that we're not self aware about it (apologies, my bias is apparent in my descriptions):

  1) Protectionist nationalism - "This is America and AMERICAN people born [or naturalized] here deserve our companies' jobs."

  2) Opportunist nationalism - "America and its citizens as a whole are better off with more high-skilled H1-B immigrants because we can take the skilled horsepower other countries would otherwise possess."

  3) Anti-nationalism - I don't see this one mentioned much, but what happens to the countries America is soaking up talent /from/?  Is it a good thing that one country attracts the brightest from all around the world, rather than distributing skill evenly?
My personal opinions have hovered around type 2 (opportunist nationalism). I've considered type 3 and think it deserves more consideration. Does anyone have data on what happens to the countries America sources talent from? Is this one of those magic win-win scenarios, or the more intuitive win-lose?

Apologies, this is lightly edited as it's long-winded and during work hours.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#184

A constant theme for support of H-1B's is that they supply the US with an irreplaceable resource for starting new technical companies. Despite this I have not heard reference of any individual who came to this country on a H-1B visa to work for an Indian outsourcing company who later participated in a significant successful startup. Honest question, does anyone know an example of this having occurred?

I don't think that it has to be a startup. What I'd like to hear from actually high skilled people with skills beyond that found in the US. I think that the H1-B program makes sense if a company need nuclear scientist, etc.

The skill that they possess is the ability to work for 1/2 the pay.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#185

This thing is the only thing that is keeping the salaries low. I can easily imagine a good software engineer getting paid at least 250-300K if we don't have H1-B visa system.

But we have been getting paid those ~numbers!

Software engineer salaries are starting to have a strong bimodal distribution.

Charitably, your statement could very well be true for those American developers who live in the lower end of compensation. But, it's nonsensical when applied to those getting paid in the high range.

Anyway, the long-term fix is not to shift the lower end up by ~10k (if that even happens) for everyone. The fix is for each individual developer to move to the higher range.

ie. quit blaming immigration and get better.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#186
post #103

This one sentence says it all: "The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast, America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their workers a median salary of…

So isn't the obvious solution to move the allocation strategy from lottery to "auction" (highest payed employees get their visas first)?

That would essentially mean only silicon valley and NYC employers would get H1B employees. The entire South would face a skills shortage. The economist article actually provides a better solution. Visas shouldn't be tied to a particular employer. The employee should be able to transition to a new employer without a new visa application. There could be minimal paperwork to determine when a foreign worker is and whether they pay prevailing wages. Also the limit on visa numbers actually make the problem worse. Instead of say Apple getting engineers they need, their visa applications now have to compete with TCS' low paying applications. Apple in this case would then be forced to subcontract TCS employees so they can work onntheir projects. Also visas are once a year thing. So employers are forced into subcontracting if they have say a 6 month project. The solution would be to eliminate cap on visa numbers and to raise the prevailing wages labor department provides on a given city and to consolidate the multitude of job titles available for visa applications. For example there are Application Engineers, UI Engineers and Software Engineers all having different prevailing wages as per labor department.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#187

yes, and it's filling shit jobs that no American CS grad wants to do. who wants to do outsourced QA for Oracle? menial, mind numbing clicky work. who wants to maintain monster codebases built 20 years ago for some internal bullshit system at a Fortune 500? most of Software work by now is akin to facilities management. hence you give it to motivated foreigners, just like in farming, etc.

For a decent salary, lots of people. Do the 9-5 and spend the rest of the time on hobbies or with family. And why not?

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i started out in tech as a teenager doing data entry and software installs. if you haven't done a similar job yet for at least a year or two, re-evaluate your expectations.

I have been doing tech support for nearly two years now. I've gotten plenty of certs, am mostly through college, and always ask to do more. It doesn't seem to matter in this area.

> am mostly through college

Lack of a degree and a code camp certificate only works in tech cities where it's hard to find coders who are gullible enough to work for free...I mean get paid in equity in a startup that's really only there to suck at the tit of an angel investor for a few funding rounds.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#189
post #175
post #103

This one sentence says it all: "The Economist found that between 2012 and 2015 the three biggest Indian outsourcing firms—TCS, Wipro and Infosys—submitted over 150,000 visa applications for positions that paid a median salary of $69,500. In contrast, America’s five biggest tech firms—Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft—submitted just 31,000 applications, and proposed to pay their workers a median salary of…

Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google and Microsoft are hugely profitable corporations they pay top dollar to any talent, whether its domestic or international. So the argument Indian outsourcing firms should pay similar salaries to every employee is like, asking every US company to pay on par with Google/Microsoft employees, I guess. There is something to be done to the US working class for sure. But when US wants to be t…

H1B's should go for talent that you cannot reasonably find domestically. What you describe seems to imply that price should also be a consideration, i.e. Talent that you cannot reasonably find domestically for the price you are willing to pay. To me, that is abusing the system.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#190
post #97

>Although it is true that foreign workers at the Indian consultancies receive more visas than higher-skilled workers at better-known firms, a simple solution exists. Congress could raise the number of visas issued. Given that the unemployment rate for college graduates sits at 2.5%, it is fair to say that most native workers displaced by H-1Bs land on their feet. Absolute scum. Native workers displaced by H1Bs is ok…

Is there a single major industry where foreign workers wouldn't displace any native workers? If you go back a century or two, I'm sure the Irish/Italian immigrants displaced a whole lot of native workers as well. By your reasoning, the US would completely shut off all avenues for immigration.
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